Access All – Episode 99
Presented by Emma Tracey
EMMA- Hello,
Access All listeners. It’s Emma here. And I just wondered if you have watched The
Assembly. It’s an unusual format for a TV show I think. It’s Michael Sheen, the
Welsh actor, very famous, and he’s in a room full of neurodivergent people and
people with learning disabilities asking him questions. Here’s a clip:
[Clip]
FEMALE- Welcome
to The Assembly. Our collective of autistic, neurodivergent and learning
disabled interviewers. We are delighted to have you ing us today. Our rules
are: no subject is out of bounds [laughter]; no question is off the table [laughter];
and all might happen. Please tell us who you are.
[End of clip]
EMMA- it
really feels like Michael Sheen is all in with this from the start. He walks
into a room full of people who are going to just ask him any question they
like. I don’t know how much preparation he was given. I don’t know if he got
any questions in advance. It doesn’t really feel like he got any questions in
advance because he answers really authentically I think, and the questions are
asked really authentically in lots of different ways. There’s a guy who just
asks him whether he likes different superheroes, and he ends up doing a Scooby
Doo impression, and there’s questions about bats and Doctor Who. There’s a guy
who doesn’t ask his question for a good number of seconds and Michael Sheen
waits really comfortably I think, and everyone cheers him on. And then there’s
this question:
[Clip]
FEMALE- Okay,
this question is a bit intense, so.
MICHAEL- Okay.
FEMALE- How
does it feel to be dating someone who’s only five years older than your
daughter? [Gasps from the crowd]
[End of clip]
EMMA- I
mean, I do love that they get right in there into Michael Sheen’s love life. I
quite enjoyed that. But I just wondered whether it’s something you think could
fly, whether there should be a series of this. Who should be in it? Who should
ask the questions? Who should answer the questions? Maybe we should have our
own Access All assembly. Who should our guests be? Ooh, the possibilities are
endless. On with the show!
MUSIC- Theme
music.
EMMA- Hello,
and welcome to Access All, the BBC’s weekly disability and mental health podcast.
I’m Emma Tracey and I’m in Edinburgh this week, which is really, really nice.
I’m going to be talking to Ashley Storrie who’s the main character in a new BBC
drama, Dinosaur, where she plays an autistic palaeontologist. How cool is that?
I’m also going to be talking to disability consultant and writer, Sam Renke,
about a podcast clip that’s been all over our social media feed and has upset a
lot of disabled people this week.
You
can us by email accessall@bbc.co.uk.
And don’t forget to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your
podcasts.
Disabled
people’s social media feeds have been full this week of people commenting in
disgust at some comments made on a podcast called Low IQ, with Cole Anderson-James
and Jack Joseph. The topic they were talking about was whether hypothetically
they would stay with a girlfriend who had been badly injured and become a
wheelchair . Here’s a clip, and it does contain some distressing language:
[Clip]
MALE- If
she was hit by a car and she was, like, completely mangled would you?
MALE- Would
I what?
MALE- Stay
with her?
MALE- Yeah.
MALE- Same.
MALE- Would
you?
MALE- Yeah,
yeah.
MALE- You
wouldn’t?
MALE- Why?
MALE- Because
you care about looks so much.
MALE- I
don’t care about looks [laughs].
MALE- Because
you’re saying mangled people aren’t attractive, if they’ve been hit by a car
they’re not attractive?
MALE- No,
I’m saying I would. But I think you would care too much about your…being next
to someone and, like, holding hands in public because you’d be like, oh
everyone’s going to think I’m grim now.
[End of clip]
EMMA- People
have also been writing about this clip on X. Here’s a flavour of what they’ve
been saying:
FEMALE- Let
me be clear, I’m not mangled; neither is it grim to hold my hand. I am strong
and independent, just like every other disabled woman you objectify with your
sickening words. Every day we face our disabilities, and the stigmas that
accompany them head on.
FEMALE- It’s
important to that health is in no way guaranteed and you could become
disabled at some point, whether it be from an accident, illness or old age, our
health can deteriorate. Would you then view yourself as mangled and grim?
EMMA- With
me to talk about this social media furore is writer, presenter and disability
consultant Sam Renke. Hi Sam.
SAM- Hi,
lovely to be here with you.
EMMA- Sam,
what’s your reaction to this clip that’s been all over the internet?
SAM- I
wasn’t shocked because this is something that I can across regularly. But I was
angered because I think, although we shouldn’t play, you know, a game of Top
Trumps when we’re talking about disability, I often think that if that word,
and I’m going to use the word they used mangled, was another derogatory term to
talk about another under-represented marginalised group there would have been a
lot more outrage. The video would have been absolutely bannered. I actually
reported it myself, and it was still up there for a very long time. So, it’s
said, it’s not surprising.
EMMA- The
men in the clip did pull back from what they were saying by the end. They said
that they would stay with a girlfriend, that they’d have no problem. They’ve
definitely pulled back from what they originally said. But they did use
like mangled and grim, you know, pretty distressing language. Do you think that
that should be illegal to say these sorts of things in a podcast, and considered
hate speech?
SAM- I
actually think it is ableist hate speech. And unfortunately when we talk about
disability and inclusive practice, when we’re talking about the law, disability
is still very much at the lower end of the pecking order, so to speak.
EMMA- So,
should what they’ve said be illegal to say?
SAM- Yeah,
I think it should have been absolutely taken down immediately. But again, I see
a lot of words still used in mainstream media. Some of my favourite programmes
still use the ‘R’ word quite flippantly. So, where is this disconnect? How can
we bridge that gap? Where are we failing disabled people? Why are we not taking
it as seriously as we would any other hate speech or discrimination?
EMMA- I
know you have strong feelings about this needing to be illegal, Samantha. But
we did the BBC duty lawyer for the legal stance and this is what they
told us: “There is no standalone hate speech offence relating to disability,
unlike for race, sexual orientation or religion”. How typical is this sort of
language on the internet and in the media, and this sort of, I mean, behaviour
I want to say? How typical is what they said? How often do you see it?
SAM- From
my own experience, you know, this did come down to lads trying to, you know,
get that attention. I went from an experience when I’ve had my own dating, a
lot of ableism, a lot of horrible misogyny when it comes to my own disability.
EMMA- In
what way? What have you experienced?
SAM- I
mean, from the very basic groups of lads when I used to go clubbing and
partying when I was much, much younger, egging one another on to go and flirt
with me or go and give me a snog, and then laughing about it, talking,
pointing, taking sneaky photos. To then making really, kind of, offhand
comments on online dating or just any online forums, very, very inquisitive
about my ability to perform sexually, that association that wheelchair
means not being able to have a sexual relationship. To before the pandemic
experience a sexual assault and having my wheelchair weaponised against me.
EMMA- Would
women talk about men like this, do you think? Would women talk about disabled
men like this?
SAM- I
don’t know. There’s probably some women that would. But I think there is quite
a toxic culture amongst men who want to be the lad, who want to get the joke. A
lot of the content that I see online is taking the Mickey, so to speak, out of
petite statured women. And all of it comes from men. Now, I’m not saying all
men behave like this, but there seems to be a real laddish culture to kind of
get those cheap thrills, to get that reaction from their peer group.
EMMA- Do
you think the level of online hate towards disabled women is actually
increasing?
SAM- I
think we’re probably more aware of it because of social media. I couldn’t
probably say that that’s increased. I’m not a sociologist, so I’ve not seen any
hard data on that. But I definitely think that there is a negative culture when
it comes to men and how they objectify women across the board.
EMMA- Do
you think that the explosion of social media has something to do with this, so
TikTok in recent years? And also maybe that this is young men’s backlash
against maybe what they see as too much diversity or, you know, wokeism and it
feels like their power is being taken away somewhat?
SAM- I
think every human being can have intrusive thoughts. I’m a true crime fanatic,
or sometimes I’ve had visions of running over someone in my wheelchair that I
don’t particular like [laughs]. But them intrusive thoughts they pop into my
mind and they dissipate very, very quickly. And I think what social media has
allowed people to do is to share those intrusive thoughts; but they then get
validation, and this validation by the likes, by the comments, by that mob
mentality I guess, by that peer pressure ultimately sends this message that oh,
okay, so to begin with I knew that that wasn’t the appropriate thing to say,
but now x, y and z, I’ve got 10,000 people saying good on you, this is amazing
what you’ve just said. And I think that adds to what we’re seeing right now to
be honest.
EMMA- And
how do you feel about so many disabled people sharing that clip? Because I
hated watching it over and over again. I found it really, really uncomfortable
and I sort of was like, I wish people would stop sharing this.
SAM- Yeah,
I agree with you, and I was quite triggered by it. I think when that actually,
the clip got shared quite a lot on social media, it was just a really heavy
time for disabled people. There was a lot in the media going on that wasn’t
pleasant towards disabled people. And I felt a bit of fatigue, I felt like wow,
is this the world we live in, are disabled people so hated. But I do say we
need to set our own boundaries when it comes to social media.
EMMA- Yeah.
SAM- Try
not to read the comments. I went down that rabbit hole and that made me feel
ten times worse. Take regular breaks away from social media. And also go and
follow some amazing, beautiful, creative, positive content creators. Get that
balance!
EMMA- Samantha
Renke, thank you so much for ing me.
SAM- Thank
you.
EMMA- And
thanks for such a great discussion on this.
SAM- Thank
you.
EMMA- We
did attempt to the makers of the Low IQ podcast, but at the time of
recording we have not as yet received a reply.
My
guest this week is a standup comedian, she’s a radio presenter, she’s a writer,
and now she is an actor in the main role in top BBC drama Dinosaur. And she’s a
big deal here in Scotland, but I reckon this role is what’s going to catapult
her on to the actual world stage because it’s on Hulu in the US as well. It’s
Ashley Storrie. You’re very welcome.
ASHLEY- Hello,
thank you for having me.
EMMA- Let’s
talk about Dinosaur. What is about? You tell me.
ASHLEY- Dinosaur
is about Nina, who is a palaeontologist, and she lives with her sister, Evie,
who is her best friend and they love each other very much. And Evie throws a
spanner into the works by telling her that she’s getting married to a man she’s
only known for, like, a couple of weeks, which isn’t enough time. And Nina is
distraught. It throws her world into a tailspin. And she has to make this
decision of whether she’s going to be a good sister or whether she’s going to
explain the logic of why Evie is wrong for doing this. And all the while Nina
is, like me, on the autism spectrum – I always forget to say that because it’s
not something I say about myself every time I mention this [laughs].
EMMA- I
wanted to jump in and say the reason why she has this absolute need to be so
logical about it all is partly because she’s autistic. We have a clip of
exactly what you were talking about there, so let’s hear it:
[Clip]
EVIE- I’ve
never felt this way, Nina. He’s my person.
NINA- But
mum and dad are not going to be happy about this.
DAD- We’re
so happy about this.
EVIE- Now,
we know that it’s soon but we’re thinking summer wedding?
DAD- Lovely.
NINA- That’s
it?
DAD- What?
NINA- She’s
marrying some man that none of us have ever met and that’s all you’re going to
say? Dad, what if he chokes women at the weekend?
DAD- Does
he choke women on the weekend?
EVIE- No.
He’s in a feminist book group.
DAD- Well,
there you are. We’d only known each other six months when we got married.
NINA- Yes,
but that was in 1986 when everybody was stupid and you thought that the
feathered mullet was an all right hairstyle for men.
DAD- Oh,
I loved my feathered mullet.
MUM- Oh,
and he’s never looked so good.
NINA- He
looked like Princess Diana.
MUM- How
long did Romeo and Juliet know each other before they got married? 24 hours?
NINA- They
were pretend, and then they killed themselves.
[End of clip]
EMMA- [Laughing]
yes, so Nina is being logical there and everyone else is just going on with it.
So, you're autistic Ashley, and so is Nina in the drama. Are there similarities
between the two of you?
ASHLEY- I
think there are certainly similarities to how we react to things. There’s a lot
of differences; Nina’s an academic, I am not. I think we’re similar in that we
both kind of see the world the same way and react to the world the same way,
and we’re both sensitive to the same things.
EMMA- Which
isn’t surprising because you were involved in writing Dinosaur, weren’t you?
What was that process like?
ASHLEY- I
was one of the co-creators on Dinosaur, and I wrote episode three, and I had a
lot of overview on the rest of the episodes. It’s what I studied in university,
filmmaking and screenwriting, so it was a dream come true literally.
EMMA- Tell
me a bit about the filming of Dinosaur. It’s about an autistic person, you’re
autistic. What was the set like, was it really autism friendly? What way did it
all pan out?
ASHLEY- When
we first started I was really, really anxious about filming because I thought,
I’m good at masking but then lockdown happened, and my masking skills kind of
fell a little to the wayside because I wasn’t interacting with people and I
didn’t really have any use for it.
EMMA- So,
you're masking in that you’re pretending and trying to be whatever people want
you to be or whatever?
ASHLEY- To
use a negative word, trying to pretend to be normal [laughter], but that wasn’t
really in my wheelhouse anymore. And I was really, really scared when we went
to film this series because filming is a really long day, it’s like 12-hour
days, five days a week, you’re surrounded by a lot of people, a lot of noise,
and I got really anxious what if I can’t maintain, what if I can’t hide it,
what if I can’t mask. And I talked to Sarah Hammond, who’s our executive producer,
and I said all this, and she was like, “Well don’t. Just be yourself. We didn’t
hire a person who’s autistic and then think that they wouldn’t be autistic
anymore. That would be strange”. So, it was really nice that she said everybody
would accommodate me rather than me trying to accommodate everybody else. And
everybody else was given that same level of care. So, there were, like,
questionnaires that we filled out before we started filming about our triggers
and stuff like that, even the neurotypical people. And we all had access to
talk to people if we wanted, and there were safe spaces wherever we went, and
everything was just really cool. And I know that sounds like it’s a lot of work
and maybe would slow things down, but we had an incredibly efficient crew and
we worked really well with that sort of open dialogue and with everybody kind
of being in the same boat, rather than it just being special treatment for me.
EMMA- Did
you feel like you were listened to throughout and the character was developed
based on stuff that you were saying? Because I follow you on social media, on
Facebook and Instagram and stuff, and you’re quite open. And there are things
that you’ve mentioned about your life over the last couple of years that I
actually saw in Dinosaur, so it feels like you were listened to.
ASHLEY- Yeah,
very much so. When it came to specifically things about meltdowns or autism or
not even the negative stuff, the positive stuff as well, I was always deferred
to. Because I think that when you’re writing about specifically autism which is
such a big spectrum and it affects everybody differently, and people feel
differently about their autism, I think that you can only write from a place of
honesty and truth, and that’s the way to make it work. And if you don’t write
from that position it can come off as artificial or like you’re writing for the
neurotypical people rather than the neurodiverse people.
EMMA- Yeah.
ASHLEY- And
I wanted it to feel real and be authentic, and not be there to just educate
other people on what autism is.
EMMA- Teaching
moments.
ASHLEY- Yeah.
I didn’t want that. And we never really fell into that trap and that was really
good.
EMMA- But
you also have a wider knowledge of autism. How many times am I going to say
autism and autistic in this interview? My god. I will talk about other stuff in
a minute, I promise. But you kind of have a wider knowledge because your dad’s
autistic as well?
ASHLEY- Yeah.
My dad was diagnosed when I was in school. And I was the first person to say,
“Oh, I think this is what’s going on, papa”. He had been really, really,
really, really depressed. Autism wasn’t even part of conversation at that
point. It was very much the idea of autism was a specific thing, and my dad
didn’t fit that sort of – I hate to use this as an example but it’s the only
thing I can think of – autism was just seen as this, like, Rain Man thing and
that was it, and there was no nuance or spectrum. And in school I was studying higher psychology
and I got given the Baron-Cohen test, which has its problems, but as I read it
I was like, oh my goodness, that’s my dad, my dad fits all of these categories
for the diagnosis of what was then called Asperger’s. And I told him, and then
he, he’d been in his bed for maybe, like, six years at this point, he hadn’t
really got up, he was so sad, and he went to his GP and his GP was like, “Yeah,
that’s what that is”. And it changed his life. He got help, he got and
he just knew, just knowing himself helped him. It was mainly just being able in
our household for him to verbalise and understand that what he was feeling
wasn’t… Because he would get so angry about tiny things and he didn’t know why,
and he thought he was just a bad person. That was in his head, that’s the only
way he could quantify this irrational irritation at tiny, tiny things. And then
when he knew oh, this is autism, I can verbalise, this is just my autism, I’m
fine and I can go away and I can contextualise these feelings I have now, that
did more than anything.
EMMA- You
talked about your household there, there are two autistic people in it – I’ve
said it again, I’ve said autistic again! – there are two autistic people in
your house. I’m obviously interested because obviously loads of houses have
more than one autistic person because often autistic adults have autistic kids.
But I always wonder whether the traits and the things that how autism shows up
for you and for your dad whether they drive you both up the wall with each
other or whether it actually helps having another autistic person in the house?
ASHLEY- I
think it’s a bit of both. It helps because we can understand each other. But at
the same time his needs are more, and more varied. I think that that kind of
helped with the writing of Dinosaur because we’re dealing with the relationship
between two sisters where one is neurodiverse and one is neurotypical. And it’s
sort of, like, I’ve had to be the neurotypical person for him to, you know,
look after him, and I can kind of see it from both sides: I can see this weird,
wonderful brain thing from both angles because I’ve been in both sets of shoes.
EMMA- So,
how did you get diagnosed then if you were being his neurotypical person for
such a long time?
ASHLEY- It
was blatantly obvious to everybody around me. I asked my doctor a long, long
time ago. After my dad got diagnosed I went to my GP and he was a very elderly
man, and I said, “I think I might have the same thing” and he was like, “Maybe,
but don’t get diagnosed because it’ll affect your ability to get employed in
the future”. And I said, “Oh okay”. And he also said, “People like you are just
like this” and I thought, okay, people like me are just like this. And then as
time went on I was finding more and more stuff difficult, and I I
verbalised to my friend once, I was like, “You know when you have to get ready
to leave the house and you’re thinking of all the things you’re going to say
and you have to put on a face and you have to prepare yourself and get in
character?” and she was like, “No, I just leave the house”. And I thought, oh,
is nobody else doing this, because the prep it takes for me to walk out the
door and interact with people is like the prep for an acting job, is nobody
else going into this level of character work for their own personality before
they exit the door? And when I realised no I thought I should probably go and
speak to somebody about that because I’ve spent my whole life thinking
everybody else was doing this.
EMMA- And
you’ve got a famous mum obviously, Janey Godley, absolutely legend. And she’s a
comedian and has been for a long time. Why did you choose to follow in her
footsteps?
ASHLEY- I
didn’t want to at all. I’d been working in and around standup comedy since I
was 11, touring and looking after her, because my dad couldn’t do that. And
you’ll find with a lot of the festival comedians, not your telly comedians and
the people who are making a lot of money, but your lower rung festival
comedians who are just doing, like, Edinburgh, New Zealand, Australia over and
over and over again, they usually have like a person that they take with them,
usually a spouse. And my dad couldn’t be that for my mum so I had to be that
for my mum. And so I would do all of the festivals and help her work. And I
just didn’t want to be a standup comedian; I saw it and I was like, nope, not
for me. But it was always something that I knew I could probably be good at if
I just tried it. And then eventually I did try it, but it was a big rebellion
against it, I didn’t want to.
EMMA- I
would say it’s fair to say you’re a bit of a cult figure, Ashley, with all of
your internet sketches and your standup comedy. How does it feel to be just
about to go really mainstream?
ASHLEY- Scary.
Being an underdog is a very comfortable place. You get away with a lot of
things, you get to be more inventive and expressive and try things because you
know nobody’s probably going to see it, and that’s a really nice position to be
in because you get to experiment without scrutiny. And I’m terrified that I
won’t have that luxury anymore. But that’s the payoff I guess, that’s the
exchange rate of getting any modicum of success. I’d be really happy if this
came out and for a week everybody was like, yeah well done, and then I just
went back to my normal life [laughs].
EMMA- Oh,
Ashley Storrie, it’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for speaking
to me.
ASHLEY- Thank
you for having me.
EMMA- Dinosaur
will be on BBC iPlayer from next week. And Ashley also has a radio show on BBC
Scotland, and it’s on BBC Sounds as well, every Friday night into Saturday
morning, 10pm to 1am.
That
is your lot for this week, yes it is. But before I go can I remind you that
next week is our 100 episode, and we are asking you to tell us the best advice
that another disabled person has given you. And I can tell you we’ve brought
together quite a few from you listeners and from our disabled celebs, but we do
want some more. So, if you could send them to us on WhatsApp, our number is
0330 123 9480. You could do a voice message or a text message. Please put the
word Access before though because that helps us find it. You can email it to accessall@bbc.co.uk. So, that’s the best
advice that another disabled person has ever given you.
Thank
you to my guests, Ashley Storrie and Sam Renke, and thanks to you for
listening. Bye bye.
