23rd January 2024
bbc.co.uk/accessall
Access All – Michael and
James Owen Special
Presented by Emma Tracey
EMMA- Hi,
this is Emma Tracey and you’re listening to an extra episode of Access All. And
I’m on a train, as you can hear from all the noises around me, and I’m
hot-footing it back to Scotland so that Storm Jocelyn doesn’t catch up with me.
But luckily I didn’t have to do so before I got to speak to 17 year-old James
Owen and his dad, legendary footballer, Michael Owen. James Owen is visually
impaired, and we’re always really interested on Access All about how families
manage. And honestly, Michael talks so brilliantly here about how he’s gotten
his head around having a son with low vision, which is fantastic. And they both
start interviewing me at one point which is quite something.
[Clip]
EMMA- Anything
else James before we finish? Because I’m quite enjoying this now, talking about
myself.
MICHAEL- Who’s
interviewing who?
EMMA- Yeah,
exactly [laughter].
[End of clip]
EMMA- I
really hope you enjoy it:
I
am so delighted to have two VIPs in the Access All studio today. I’ve got James
Owen and his legendary football dad, Michael Owen. You’re so welcome. Thank you
for coming.
MICHAEL- It’s
great to be here. Really pleased to be here and thank you for having us.
EMMA- Well,
you’ve got a documentary coming out about partially sighted futsal, which is an
indoor football game which has been adapted for visually impaired people. And
the reason that you’ve been talking about that is because James is visually
impaired and managed to give futsal a go. How has it been making the
documentary?
JAMES- Oh,
I mean, this has been a surreal experience really. It’s been quite a while;
it’s been halted due to COVID, so on the documentary I actually look quite a
lot younger. I’ve definitely grown quite a lot since then.
EMMA- I
actually could hear you growing in confidence throughout. And by the end of it
you really were very confident going to places by yourself, asking your own
questions. Did it feel like that, like a bit of a process?
JAMES- Yeah,
I would say so. The documentary has helped me grow as a person and, I don’t
know. But the whole experience has been brilliant and I’ve made a lot of
friends along the way.
EMMA- How
has the documentary helped you grow as a person, do you think?
JAMES- Well,
when I was a lot younger I never used to talk about, well, my eyesight, and I
never really used to talk about anything really. I used to be quite shy as a
kid. That’s partly to do with the documentary and also partly to do with my
dad, because I’ve started being more social now, I would say. I would go to the
races with, like, the horses. I’ve got a big interest in horses. And it was
just nice to meet people who’ve also got an eye condition just to almost get
something off your chest, you know. Because I’ve never met anyone with an eye
condition before going on to the documentary.
EMMA- So,
you’ve never met someone with an eye condition, how is that? I mean, usually
there would be some groups, some opportunities. Was it something you didn’t
want to do?
JAMES- I
wouldn’t say it’s not something I would want to do. It’s just you just never
really see it. And a lot of people wouldn’t even, when they meet me, they
wouldn’t even think I’ve got a visual impairment in the first place. It’s not
something which we rarely even talk about, to be honest. It’s just something I
live with, so I’ve just got normal mates, I do normal things with my mates.
It’s just sometimes I have different ways of getting around it.
EMMA- Yeah.
We’ve talked about you having a visual impairment but we haven’t actually
chatted much about what it is. Stargardt’s disease is what you were diagnosed
with. What is that and how does it affect your eyesight?
JAMES- I
was diagnosed when I was eight years old. And it is a deterioration disease in
your eye where I think the central vision is blurry and is less than a normal
person’s. I struggle with seeing different colours and all stuff like that,
with different lights. I’ve got good peripheral vision, so that’s something which
will stay. But it does get worse over time, which is the more scary part of it from
other people’s point of view.
EMMA- So,
what are the strategies and different ways you get around things? You’re at
college, hanging around with your mates, what kinds of strategies do you put in
place or what tech do you use? We’re very geeky here on Access All about stuff
like this.
JAMES- Yeah,
I mean there’s loads of things. Just little things like picking up what people
sound like or noticing what people are wearing. So, I’d notice what colour my
dad’s jumper, let’s say, would be. So, if I ever go out then I would be able to
recognise him from the colour of his jumper, not from his face, because
obviously I struggle with detail.
EMMA- Yeah.
And you know my husband’s visually impaired and when the kids were toddlers we
used to make them wear really bright clothes so that he could see them in the
playground and stuff like that.
Michael,
we’ve talked about James’ experience of it, but as a dad around diagnosis time
what kinds of feelings were you having? What was going through your mind?
MICHAEL- Well,
as James said, it was about when he was eight years old when he was first
diagnosed with Stargardt’s disease. Of course that’s a hammer blow to a parent.
You just want and you think, and he is [laughs], but you want everything to be
perfect. Of course it was a sad time, thinking about the future, thinking about
how that’s going to compromise his life, you know, will he be able to drive,
will he be able to work, what jobs will be there for him, and all these things
run through your mind. So, of course, it’s like anything, time is a great
healer. And in James’ case he’s developed so much as a human being as well, and
it’s been easy to put it to the back of your mind and just to get on with life.
James is very positive. He wasn’t necessarily so positive early on, but
certainly in the last five, six, seven, eight years he’s become a real positive
lad. And to be honest, we never speak about his condition; he gets treated like
everybody else. We have some positives now – I mean, I’m a very positive
thinker, just naturally, I’m very fortunate like that – but I’ll get to spend
more time with him because I’ll be driving him around and things like that.
EMMA- And
you can see a future for him now. It sounds like he’s adapted well now; you can
see a future for him. Was that always a worry about what his future would be?
MICHAEL- I
guess it was, you know, ten years ago. But I’ve got four children and if I said
to you I’m probably least worried about James’ future than any of the others.
EMMA- Why
is that? That’s so interesting.
MICHAEL- He’s
just mentally very, very strong. He’s positive about things. He’s got a great
mindset. And his condition won’t stop him. In his mind, and in my mind, we’ve
worked on the theory over time that yes, you’ve been dealt a bad hand, yes
there’s things that you can’t do that I’d love you to and you’d love to do,
however what are we going to do? Are we going to sit here and cry all our lives
or are we going to make the best of it? And he has just taken the bull by the
horns and he will make a positive out of his life, there’s no question about
it.
EMMA- We
often hear about mum guilt, but I’ve seen you, Michael, talk about dad guilt.
It’s actually quite hard, isn’t it, for a parent to see your kid go through
anything. And obviously when we were finding out what James’ eye condition was
there must have been procedures and things like that. That’s hard as well,
isn’t it?
MICHAEL- It
is, yeah. You’re pushing your son forward to get something you know is going to
be painful, you know it’s going to sting all day, he doesn’t want it.
EMMA- Like
drops and stuff like that?
MICHAEL- Exactly,
anything like that, people prodding away at his eyes and sticking things in
them and all the rest of it as a kid. It’s just horrible to see your son not
enjoying it and then being in pain and all the rest of it. So, it’s very difficult.
You want to take all the pain away. You want to swap with him; if I could give
him my eyes and we’d do a swap then I would tomorrow of course. But again, you
can mope all your life. And I get tired of thinking about it and thinking what
if and all the rest of it. We just are so positive. We do all the things. I've
got a weekend off this weekend and me and him will be together. I wouldn’t want
to spend my time with anyone else, type of thing. We’ll be out in town, we’ll
be watching racing on the television, and he won’t be able to see it but he’ll
be able to hear the commentary, and we’ll be messing about, and we’ll be listening
to the football and watching that.
EMMA- Because
racing’s really fast, isn’t it? It must be very hard to see the detail of
racing actually.
MICHAEL- Exactly.
EMMA- And
did you get, did you look for help and did you get ? And is there enough
? That’s a lot of questions in one. So, did you look for help and
, and did you get it?
MICHAEL- Well,
when we were made aware of what it was of course then there’s a whole new world
out there. It’s awkward because you want, some people want to turn away from it
and just put it to the back of my mind and everything else, and then some
people are really at the forefront and wanting to know absolutely everything.
Now, I’m a positive thinker, as I said, and we make the absolute very best of
life. However, I would say in the scientific side of things I am one that sits
back, tries to do my bit in of earning as much money for the charities as
possible, hope that the next thing comes out that can maybe benefit James and
other partially sighted people. But I’m not, sort of, phoning the doctors every
day saying, ‘Anything out there yet that’s going to make him see better?’
EMMA- So,
you’re not spending your energy and desperate for a cure, but you’re working in
the best way you can to move things forward?
MICHAEL- Yeah,
I think that’s fair, that’s a fair analogy of it. I’m obviously desperate,
desperate, I mean I would pay every cent that I’ve got to make James see again,
I’d walk the other end of the world to make him see better, but…
EMMA- And
would you want that, James?
JAMES- Would
I want?
EMMA- For
all the visual impairment to go away?
JAMES- Well,
if I could get my eyes to be fixed tomorrow of course that’s, like, a
no-brainer. I’d love to be able to drive, I’d love to be able to see my friends
and family.
EMMA- Yeah.
Part of your identity you have now is the person you are and the eyesight you
have, and the people you’ve met some of them have been through that, and the
choices you’ve made – and we’re going to go on to football in a second –
they’ve probably been based in some ways around being visually impaired. Would
life not be very different now if you went back, if your eyesight went the
other way?
JAMES- I’m
sure it’d be different in many ways, but I definitely think I would still get
on with all the people from futsal.
EMMA- James,
do you have any questions for me as an older – I mean, I am a totally blind
person, it is a bit different – but have you any questions for me?
JAMES- Um…
MICHAEL- I
have [laughter]. What’s your biggest challenge? And how do you cope with
obviously your impairment?
EMMA- Oh,
my biggest challenge…
MICHAEL- You
obviously have amazing adapting strategies.
EMMA- Yeah.
MICHAEL- James
does as well. But is there anything that prevents you from…?
EMMA- I’m
not brilliant at getting around. Some blind people are. My spatial awareness
and sense of direction isn’t brilliant. So, it’s not necessarily blind people
all over the world. But I wouldn’t be brilliant at getting around. So, driving
I think was something that I would like the technology to arrive for me to do.
I could talk about this all day. I’ve been blind from birth and being able to
see now would ruin my life because I’ve built a life around not being able to
see, and I would have to teach myself to see. And I’ve already got two children
and a job and a big life, and it would just take up too much of my time
learning how to see.
MICHAEL- Wow.
EMMA- And
I think with parenting it’s other people’s perceptions and it’s the normal
things around parenting, it’s not actually running after the children or
anything.
MICHAEL- That’s
fascinating.
JAMES- Yeah.
MICHAEL- Because
from our point of view, and you asked the question earlier which made me think
a little bit, but when you said, are you sure you would want to see, not if the
technology was out there but yeah, if it was out there to actually improve your
vision where would you say you’d be almost perfectly happy not to be able to
see for the rest of your life?
EMMA- Yeah.
I mean, if you brought a cure up to me and said it would be easy and painless
and actually we have a course that could teach you to see in a couple of weeks
I might change my mind, you know. But at the minute it all would feel like it
would just take up a lot of my time, and I’m quite happy as I am.
MICHAEL- And
you say your partner as well is partially sighted. To what level?
EMMA- I
don’t really understand because I can’t see, but he’s got albinism. So, I think
he finds it hard to see detail from far away. So, what James was saying about
people’s clothes colours, and you wouldn’t be looking for a house number, you’d
be looking for the colour of the fence or whatever.
JAMES- Yeah,
definitely.
EMMA- Things
like that. So, I think he can see very detail up close, but further away it’s
harder for him. But I don’t actually know because I haven’t really talked to
him about it that much. And again, he’s always been visually impaired so he
doesn’t really know what other people can see either. So, it’s not a
conversation, like you guys, it’s not a conversation that happens in our house
really.
MICHAEL- It
is incredible, isn’t it, because people have been asking James when we’ve been
doing interviews leading up to the launch of the documentary, and they’re
asking him questions, ‘Well what can you see?’ he’s like, ‘I don’t know, I
just... My dad will probably be able to tell you how my visual, because he can
in theory see properly and he can explain what it is’. But James finds it hard
as well to answer that question.
JAMES- Yeah.
MICHAEL- And
we don’t talk about it either that much.
EMMA- Well,
yeah, we just don’t need to, do you know. And the kids know.
MICHAEL- Are
the kids visually impaired?
JAMES- That’s
what I was going to ask.
EMMA- Oh,
that’s a question every taxi driver asks me that I get into. If we get into
that part of the conversation they always ask me that. They are fully sighted,
yes, so they do, they very happily take advantage of us from time to time. But
they’re absolutely brilliant as well.
MICHAEL- Wonderful.
EMMA- And
this is their world and, you know, I think they’re happy in it.
MICHAEL- That’s
amazing.
EMMA- Anything
else, James, before we finish? Because I’m quite enjoying this now, talking
about myself.
MICHAEL- Who’s
interviewing who? [Laughter]
EMMA- Exactly.
JAMES- It’s
still a bit of shock that you’re quite happy being where you are. I mean, I’m
quite happy being the way I am, but I would definitely prefer to be able to
drive and have a bit more independence.
EMMA- But
that is okay, and that is your experience and you’re allowed to feel like that.
You’re also a teenager. I’m in my 40s, I’ve had a long time to get used to it,
and I’ve made a lot of choices based on it. So, we’re in totally different
parts of the journey, and there’s no right way to think about it.
You
are here to talk about a documentary about partially sighted futsal. And James,
your grandad was a footballer, your dad was a very, very successful footballer,
did you hope to be a footballer?
JAMES- Oh,
I mean, of course. Like, everyone wants to be a footballer, especially when
it’s so close to home and being inspired from your dad. It’s something I really
wanted to go into. But obviously that’s not the cards I’ve been dealt. I still
enjoyed playing football for a long time, but it got to the point where I
struggled to compete when the pitches got bigger. And it was all getting too
fast-paced, everyone was getting better and better. I was good at the ball, I
was actually a decent player, funnily enough.
EMMA- Do
you agree, Michael, was he a decent player?
MICHAEL- He
was good, yeah. As he says, until the pitch got bigger and he couldn’t see the
ball as well, and by the time he saw it it was whizzing past and he couldn’t
get into position. So, of course the normal things. And James’ character is if
he’s not going to be brilliant at something he probably doesn’t want to do it.
EMMA- Where
did he get that from, I wonder.
MICHAEL- I
know. His mum. His mum.
EMMA- [Laughs]
MICHAEL- All
his bad traits are his mum.
EMMA- I
don’t know if it’s a bad trait at all [laughter]. So, when you discovered
partially sighted futsal how did that make you feel and what did you think
about that?
JAMES- I
mean, it was quite a big shock to be honest, because I didn’t expect the
standard to be good as it actually was. And I didn’t expect the sport to be the
same as it actually was. I thought that I’d go there and have to put a
blindfold on and play football with a bell in a ball.
EMMA- So,
you were thinking about blind football as you’d seen it at the Paralympics and
on ads and stuff like that?
JAMES- Yeah.
But I just presumed, I don’t know…I just must have not even thought about it.
EMMA- I’d
never heard of it either.
JAMES- Yeah.
EMMA- I’d
never heard of it either. What is it? What is visually impaired or partially
sighted futsal?
JAMES- It’s
just normal football but on a smaller scaled pitch, which is perfect for
someone like me who used to struggle with the pitch getting bigger. Because
that is one of the main factors which caused me to stop playing. But in
visually impaired futsal or in normal futsal I believe the ball is slightly heavier,
to stop it bounding and stuff like that; the goals are normally slightly
smaller, like similar size to a hockey goal; and the goalkeeper is allowed to
be fully sighted and is not allowed to leave the D.
EMMA- What’s
the D?
MICHAEL- It’s
like an area around the goal.
JAMES- A
bit like a box.
MICHAEL- We
would call it the 18-yard box in football.
EMMA- Okay,
so they have to stay in their lane, these fully sighted players?
MICHAEL- Exactly
[laughs], that’s right. The goalkeepers are fully sighted but the rest of the
team aren’t.
EMMA- And
how did you get on with the game?
JAMES- Well,
I don’t want to spoil it because obviously this is for the documentary, but I
did actually score at some point while training with the England team.
EMMA- Woo.
JAMES- Which
I’m quite happy about. I’m glad they kept some of the good parts in. I know
there some point where I actually got megged and scored an own goal from
getting past…
EMMA- Do
you want to explain to the listeners what this?
MICHAEL- Getting
nutmegged: the ball goes through your legs. It’s one of the most embarrassing
things in football if you get nutmegged.
JAMES- Yeah,
and then score an own goal from it, it was just like, yeah, not a great moment.
And it was on camera.
MICHAEL- They
took that out as well.
EMMA- So,
they didn’t leave that in.
JAMES- I’m
a bit disappointed [laughs].
EMMA- You
were still getting used to the game.
JAMES- Yeah.
EMMA- And
in of your vision, was it quite similar to the other players? In of
classification did you have a think about what you would be? So, B1, there’s,
like, very blind. Like me I’m a total, I couldn’t play that game. So, B1 is a
little bit of vision.
JAMES- I
think I was B2, wasn’t I? B2 or 3, something like that.
MICHAEL- Yeah,
I can’t exactly what you are.
JAMES- No,
but it was a long time ago.
MICHAEL- It’s
a very good question because there’s a certain amount of players allowed on the
pitch at a certain time that have different classifications, as you say. So,
you’re only allowed, you know, maybe a couple of B2s, maybe a couple of B3s at
any point. And when you’re making substitutions you’ve got to be aware of what
players are what. So, of course if you have somebody that’s vision is seriously
impaired but they’re exceptional players then they’re worth their weight in
gold because obviously you’re playing with a player that in theory on the other
team wouldn’t be as good having their vision not being good at all. There’s a
few complications in it, but, you know.
EMMA- So,
the vision level doesn’t actually relate to how good a player you are?
MICHAEL- It
doesn’t, but you do have to have a certain amount of players on the pitch at
any one time in a certain category, just to make it fair.
EMMA- Sure.
And James, are you going to continue with the futsal?
JAMES- Unfortunately
not. I did enjoy playing it, and I enjoyed, well normal football, I enjoy
football in general. But, as dad said, it’s a lot of commitment really, and I
want to focus on business, so unfortunately just can’t really go together. But…
EMMA- But
it was a really good experience?
JAMES- Oh,
I enjoyed every minute of filming the documentary and it was a great laugh,
yeah.
EMMA- So,
where will we see you, do you think – I mean, you’re 17, I did not know what I
was doing at 17 – but where do you think we’ll see James Owen in ten years’
time? Daddy can say what he thinks as well.
JAMES- Oh
god, I don’t even…I wouldn’t even be able to guess. I mean, if you were to have
asked this question a few years ago and asked where I’d be now I would not have
guessed this. Because I was a shy kid, I literally just used to want to play on
the Xbox. But I definitely got brought out of my shell, whether this be from
the documentary or from my dad. But I definitely wouldn’t see myself being here
speaking to you [laughs].
EMMA- So,
you don’t know what kind of business you want to do or anything?
JAMES- No,
not necessarily, but I would want to have my own business.
EMMA- And
daddy, what do you think? Michael Owen, what do you think your son James will
be doing in ten years’ time?
MICHAEL- Well,
he’ll be successful, I’m pretty sure about that. I mean, he takes a keen
interest in my business, which is the training of racehorses. And he’s taken a
particular shine to that and a ion; more so with clients, meeting people,
picking their brains as to what they do and how they’ve become so successful.
Actually looking into my business as well and understanding it, I think he
takes a particular shine to that as well. So, he will definitely run a business
of some sort in the future. What that will be I’m not sure.
EMMA- That’s
fair enough.
MICHAEL- I
pretty much know that when I retire from working in 30 years or something he’ll
probably take over…
EMMA- The
family empire.
MICHAEL- …over
the family empire.
EMMA- Oh,
that’s fantastic. James’ and Michael’s documentary, Football is for Everyone,
is available from 30th January on TNT Sports and Discovery Plus. Thank you so
much, Michael Owen and James Owen.
MICHAEL- I’m
so impressed. Well done you.
JAMES- Thank
you.
EMMA- Thank
you. No, well done you! Stop it, it’s not about me.
MICHAEL- Amazing.
EMMA- Wasn’t
supposed to be about me anyway.
MICHAEL- No,
it’s very inspirational. Amazing that was.
MUSIC-
EMMA- I
thoroughly enjoyed that interview. Honestly, it was so good to talk about
growing up with a visual impairment and jobs and school and sports. And also
how Michael Owen worked through having a son with low vision. If you’d like us
to interview someone in particular please email accessall@bbc.co.uk. And that
this is the second episode of Access All this week. The first one is called
Drugs Shortage, and it’s probably already on your device. But if it isn’t pop
on, subscribe on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts, and you’ll have
that one as well. Really looking forward to seeing you next week. Bye.
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