26th October 2023
Access All – episode 76
Presented by Nikki Fox and
Emma Tracey
EMMA- You
don’t just do the podcast do you, Nikki? You actually do other stuff as well.
NIKKI- I
know. You know that Ems because I had a take Emma to work day yesterday, didn’t
I?
EMMA- [Laughs]
I was like your pet.
NIKKI- It
was brilliant.
EMMA- Yeah,
absolutely.
NIKKI- You
know I do Watchdog as well, don’t I, and so I make the films for Watchdog and
then I have to go on live on The One Show on a Wednesday.
EMMA- Yes.
NIKKI- I
mix that up all right. And you came and met me and I loved it.
EMMA- I
did, and it was great seeing your little pre-show routines, getting your sushi
on.
NIKKI- Yeah,
eat sushi, shove it in my mouth, maybe change a jacket. What I loved is when we
came into the studio together, Jermaine Jenas was there because he was
presenting with Vicky Hope, wasn’t he?
EMMA- Yeah.
NIKKI- And
I was like ‘Jermaine, Jermaine, come and meet Emma, she’s my co-host on Access
All’.
EMMA- And
he said that you talk a lot about me.
NIKKI- Yeah.
EMMA- Very
firm handshake as well.
NIKKI- Yeah.
EMMA- Lovely
handshake.
NIKKI- And
he often smells quite delicious as well.
EMMA- I
didn’t get close enough to smell him. But I did hear you do an amazing film
where you sounded quite Australia with your…
NIKKI- I know.
EMMA- …AI scammy voice.
NIKKI- Basically
a professor ripped a bit of my chat from the podcast and put it into some AI
whatever the hell it is they do, and yeah, got – I can’t what I said
but I was saying something, and it wasn’t me.
[Clip]
MALE- So,
I’ve got a copy of your voice actually Nikki.
AI NIKKI- What?
Nikki Fox here, please transfer the money into the number I’m about to
send you.
NIKKI- Oh
my god, that’s actually…I know we’ve been talking about it, but to hear it is
kind of blowing my mind slightly.
[End of clip]
EMMA- But
it did sound like you.
NIKKI- Well,
it was a little bit [Australian accent] like this.
EMMA- Well,
you can do this thing called Personal Voice on your iPhone now where you spend
20 minutes or 30 minutes or however long it takes saying phrases into your
phone and it turns it into a voice that you can write, type anything into and
it’ll say it out loud and it sounds a bit like you. And I sound American, and I
also sound [muffled voice] like I talk with my teeth together a bit as well.
AI EMMA- Access
all presenter, Emma Tracey, here. But not the real Emma. Can you tell the
difference?
NIKKI- I
really want you to come to work with me again, Ems. I loved it.
EMMA- You’re
at work with me right now, Nikki [laughs].
NIKKI- Yeah,
that’s a good point that, Ems [laughs].
MUSIC- Theme
music.
NIKKI- It’s
Access All, the disability and mental health podcast from the BBC. Or, if you
prefer, it’s just that show with two women who love to have a chat but tend to
massively overshare. I’m Nikki Fox.
EMMA- And
I’m Emma Tracey. And we are both in London this week.
NIKKI- Oh
yes.
EMMA- Sharing
a small room and the same air, and our love for Access All.
NIKKI- That
sounded creepy, but I like it [laughs]. There’s a new disability inspired
animation which will be showing every weekend on Channel 5 very soon. Here’s a
little snippet:
[Clip]
SPIN- I’m
faster than you because I’ve got wheels.
POCKETS- I
want wheels too.
GIGGLE- Me
too.
[End of clip]
NIKKI- It’s
called MixMups, and its creator, who’s also disabled, will be with us later.
EMMA- Technology
should be a great enabler, right?
NIKKI- Oh
yeah!
EMMA- But
it can also be a disabler too.
NIKKI- Amazing.
EMMA- Problems
and solutions are on our agenda this week as we look at a very necessary aspect
of daily life: chip and PIN machines.
NIKKI- Go
to BBC Sounds and subscribe to our podcast to make sure you catch us every
single week. And you can follow us on X, formerly Twitter, where you’ll also
find our transcripts, which is great.
EMMA- Most
of us take paying by card for granted these days, don’t we? But for some blind
people the newer touch screen card readers can be a real issue. Their flat
screens surfaces have nothing for blind people to touch, no buttons – you know
how I love my buttons.
NIKKI- She
loves a button.
EMMA- Love
my buttons. So, we can’t put our PIN in if less doesn’t work for some
reason or other, which often happens. I actually had an experience with this in
a restaurant recently when I had already committed to paying for a group of
people’s meals, I couldn’t use the machine and it was really embarrassing and a
bit demoralising. I’m not alone because Ang Harrad has also had several experiences
with these machines.
ANG- I
kind of just have to refuse the item. I have to tell the barista to not start
making my drink until I’ve put the payment through, because if it asks for my
PIN I will not be able to pay for it. It can be embarrassing, but I refuse to
give my PIN number out to a sales assistant or even someone I’m with; it just
feels like an invasion of privacy that other people just don’t have to do.
EMMA- I
can really, really relate to that.
NIKKI- Yeah.
EMMA- I
don’t know how many people I’ve given my PIN too over time, because just in the
end it’s like quickness or embarrassment, or I just want the cup of tea.
NIKKI- Well,
Ems, maybe these shops should have known a little bit better, because a few
years ago the RNIB, which is the Royal National Institute of Blind people, and
UK Finance, which is the trade association for financial services like card
readers, well they worked on this, and there are now a couple of solutions.
ing us to talk about this is Dave Williams. He’s a customer experience
manager at the RNIB. Welcome, welcome Dave.
DAVE- Hello,
lovely to be with you both.
NIKKI- Does
the RNIB hear from a lot of blind people facing issues with these card readers?
And what kinds of problems are they having?
DAVE- Yeah,
we do, and it is a real problem. I’ve been in that situation as well where I’ve
gone to pay for something and I’ve been asked to enter my PIN on a touchscreen
and I haven’t been able to do it. It is hugely frustrating, and we mustn’t
accept this. And we do hear a lot from customers about these machines, which
are increasingly used by particularly the small to medium sized businesses
because they’re very widely available. You can walk into a high street shop now
and you can buy a touchscreen point of sale machine for 20 or 30 quid. There
are some solutions available. So, some of the manufacturers have tactile
templates that fit over the touchscreen that will then guide your fingers into
the positions of the keys on the keypad. There are also accessibility modes on
some devices which will offer some audio cues to help you identify where the
number pad is.
EMMA- We’ve
got a clip of what it sounds like this machine.
[Clip]
VOICE 1- To
enter digit two, start in the top left and move your finger onto the screen.
When you hear a beep you will know you’re on the number one.
VOICE 2- PIN
pad below [beep].
VOICE 1- Then
move to the right, and when you hear another beep you will know you’re on the
number two. [Beep] Once you have found the digit you want lift your finger and
double tap anywhere on the screen to enter it.
VOICE 2- One
digit entered.
[End of clip]
EMMA- You’ve
used these machines, how do you do it, Dave?
DAVE- Well,
I think it’s important to emphasise that many blind and partially sighted
people are using touchscreens every single minute of every single day, right,
and we’re using screen reading software on our smartphones. So, I know that 20
years ago the idea that something might have a touchscreen used to fill us with
horror, didn’t it, and we’d sort of run for the garlic, that touchscreens were
inaccessible and that was that. But obviously the world has moved on and we
know that touchscreens can be made accessible, and so the accessibility mode in
these devices tries to use some of that ability. But I appreciate maybe for a
less tech savvy person that’s going to be challenging. And in that situation I
might be looking for an alternative way to pay.
NIKKI- And
Dave a lot of these machines already have an accessibility mode. But how do
businesses find out how to do that or know how to do it?
DAVE- So,
there is an accessibility icon on the screen of devices that have this mode. I
should emphasise that it isn’t all machines that have an accessibility mode;
many won’t.
NIKKI- Okay.
DAVE- And
in some cases you may need a tactile template. And the reality is that in some
cases you may need to find an alternative way to pay.
EMMA- Dave,
do you know the answer to this: why have businesses gone to these touchscreen
machines? Why them instead of button machines?
DAVE- They
like the touchscreen machines because the screen can be repurposed to do other
things: they can show you advertising; they can offer to upsell an additional
thing at the time of purchase; they might offer you the option to add a tip;
things like that. They are quite low cost in many cases as well.
I
think the other point to make here, Emma, as well is you and I are thinking
about this from the point of view of somebody who’s totally blind, but I have
heard from partially sighted people that actually in some cases having that
larger screen, that brighter screen is sometimes high contrast, sometimes
easier for people with low vision to see visually.
NIKKI- Well,
you’ve given us some solutions, so thank you for that, Dave. But it is clear
from some of the messages that we’ve been getting that many shops they’re not
getting on board with all of the accessibility features that they could. Cath
and Alex both got in touch with us to share their frustration. We’ve got a clip
of them now:
CATH- I
had to pay with cash in the end because I wasn’t able to enter my PIN on the
touchscreen. It’s really worrying for me if this becomes widespread because I
just won’t be able to enter my PIN when it’s required, and I feel I need to
have cash with me all the time.
ALEX- She
said oh, don’t worry about it, when you come in next time if it happens again
you can just give us the money next time. And I thought well, that’s very kind
of you, but that’s really not the point.
NIKKI- Frustrating.
And I know I was joking with you before, Emma, but it is the simple things and
they can add up, can’t they?
EMMA- Drip
drip.
NIKKI- Yeah,
totally. Well, ing us now is the brilliant Chris Fry, a lawyer who
specialises in disability discrimination. Welcome, welcome Chris Fry. Thank you
for ing us.
CHRIS- Thank
you for having me.
NIKKI- Now,
you are familiar with the situation. I just want to ask you, who do you think
is responsible for making sure that these card machines are accessible for
people who really need them to be accessible?
CHRIS- This
is a consumer related thing so it is the person that’s providing the service,
so the newsagent, the store is responsible for making sure that its services
are accessible.
NIKKI- Okay,
so it just squarely lies with them?
CHRIS- It
does. I mean, there is a question about whether or not the people who produce
these options ought to be considering whether accessibility is baked in.
NIKKI- Yeah.
CHRIS- But
that’s really a problem for the people that are buying those solutions from those
companies. If I was instructed by somebody who then couldn’t access the service
then we would be suing the business itself, and the business then you would
expect to then take it up with the provider. But ultimately it’s an
anticipatory duty, anybody buying a product which it’s then hoping to use as a
point of sale for people with disabilities has to sort of essentially risk
assess it and work out whether or not this is going to suit their customers.
EMMA- So,
has anyone ever taken a business to court over their inaccessible card reader?
CHRIS- Yeah,
there have been a few cases that I’ve been involved with. Essentially people
with sight loss often have problems with chip and PIN, which is why RNIB worked
with various institutions to arrange for most chip and PIN machines to have a
number five with like a little pip on it, like a little raised spot.
EMMA- Okay,
so it was disabled people fighting that got the spot on the five?
CHRIS- Yes,
it was, through RNIB which was obviously brilliant.
EMMA- Is
you can by cash an excuse for people who don’t have the accessible card
readers? So, can they just say you can pay with cash?
CHRIS- Well,
it’s potentially an alternative if it’s handled correctly. But most ATMs are
still not talking ATMs. And their height is also a problem for people as well,
so, it’s not a given. The whole infrastructure needs to be taken into
when it comes down to that. But then that also overlays with inaccessible
communications. So, you should be told as a customer that your only option for
payment is touchscreen so that you can make alternative arrangements. It’s no
good getting to the counter after having done your shop and not knowing what’s
in your basket, what it’s going cost and how you’re going to pay, and then
where the ATM is in order to go and pay.
NIKKI- Chris,
that was so interesting. Thank you so much for coming on. We did to the
Federation of Small Businesses who sent us this statement from Tina McKenzie,
their policy chair:
‘Digital
payment systems which use touchscreen readers can be convenient for small
retailers and for many customers who prefer to pay by card. But it’s absolutely
vital for accessibility for blind and partially sighted people to be considered
as well. Accessibility is a basic necessity, and with digital payment options
continuing to evolve it should be at the forefront of card company and terminal
manufacturers’ minds.’
NIKKI- It’s
the guest that I know I’ve been waiting for, Emma, in the studio. We’ve been
speaking about this wonderful human a lot, haven’t we?
EMMA- We
have. We’ve spoken about it. We’ve heard her voice.
NIKKI- Yes.
EMMA- But
we have not met her.
NIKKI- No.
EMMA- Until now.
NIKKI- Until
now. We are ed in the studio by Georgina Rose. Now, Georgina is the audio
describer for one of my favourite shows ever, Strictly Come Dancing.
EMMA- Woo!
NIKKI- And
she’s with us now. Hello Georgina.
GEORGINA- Hello,
I’m so excited to meet you guys as well.
EMMA- I
cannot tell you how incredible it is to hear you specifically, but audio
description live on Strictly on a Saturday night. You used to audio describe
the show afterwards and it used to go up on iPlayer mid-week.
NIKKI- Right.
EMMA- But
you want to watch it with your family, you want to watch it with your friends
when everyone else is, you want to follow the tweets, you want to do the
socials. And now we can because Georgina is there with us in the room
describing the dancing, describing the costumes, describing the people’s faces,
the audience, the set. It changes Strictly from a bit of music and singing to
what’s actually happening in the show, to the actual dances.
NIKKI- How
does that make you feel though, Georgina, to hear that?
GEORGINA- I’m
actually feeling pretty emotional because I was so excited when we got the
opportunity to do this as a live programme. It’s a really new thing for us to
do. This incredible team of people have made it happen and managed to boil it
down to a single button that I have to press. So, hearing that sort of
and actually seeing what’s been going on on social media as well has made it
all worthwhile. Because my sole aim is to make sure that blind and partially
sighted fans of Strictly can enjoy those big moments at the same time as the
family they’re sitting around watching it, so everyone can do a woah at the
same time together. So, that sort of drives me on.
NIKKI- Do
you get more nervous because you’re doing it live?
GEORGINA- I go
a little bit quiet for the half hour beforehand. I work with an amazing
colleague called Pauline Cavilla. We get sent footage of a rehearsal, so we’re
able to watch the dance through once. So, we’ll write a script for each dance.
You don’t know what’s going to happen on the night.
NIKKI- Of
course.
GEORGINA- It
could all go absolutely perfect and there not be any difference. But human
beings being human beings, they’re going to trip over, they’re going to be more
nervous. What I’m trying to do is read a script of what we’ve already scripted
to that rehearsal dance, but I’m also watching what’s happening live on screen.
So, I don’t really have time to get nervous because my brain’s having to operate
on lots of different levels. I’m looking out for someone, Angela Rippon’s foot
kept falling out of her shoe.
NIKKI- Oh
the Rippon.
GEORGINA- Which
I believe happened this week [laughs]. I’m trying really hard to concentrate on
two things at once. Once the show starts I’m as excited as anyone else. And for
me I’m really responding the way I would if I was sitting at home watching it
with my family.
NIKKI- How
creative can you be when you’re doing it live?
GEORGINA- I
mean, I think I’m pretty over-enthusiastic when I’m doing the description, [laughs]
just because I’m enjoying it so much. And I want to put across how ionate a
dance is or how close the couples are, or the looks that they’re giving each
other. That’s what makes it juicy and exciting for me as a viewer is how those
two people are working together.
EMMA- She
says things like, ‘He gives a smouldering look’.
GEORGINA- I
think with a programme like Strictly, because it’s so joyful and camp and
bright and beautiful and just totally innocent enjoyment, I think there’s
definitely space for me to be able to blur the lines between what would be a
very formal audio description of something and a more enhanced audio
description maybe.
EMMA- Do
you ever feel like you’ve gone too far with what you’re embellished or said or
whatever?
GEORGINA- I
definitely wouldn’t say I’d embellished it. I’ll only say what’s happening. Obviously
it’s my interpretation so I can’t be completely detached. I’m going to have my
own personal response to how a dance is going. Sometimes the judges disagree
with me afterwards, which is a bit off-putting. And obviously when we used to
do it pre-recorded I’d be able to watch it first, hear what the judges said…
EMMA- Yes.
GEORGINA- …and
then tailor my audio descriptions to pick up those bits they’re talking about.
NIKKI- Amazing.
EMMA- That’s
so brilliant.
GEORGINA- But now
it’s kind of like, I mean if I press the button during the judges responses
there’d be an awful lot of, ‘Oh come on mate…!’
NIKKI- This
is brilliant though. We’ve got so much room for fun here because Motsi could
have contradicted you. Who’s right, Motsi or Georgina?
EMMA- Well,
they contradict each other though. People who haven’t watched a lot of audio
description in the theatre and they’ve only heard it on television won’t have
heard stumbles before.
NIKKI- Stumbles?
EMMA- [Whispering]
Georgina, every now and again, she kind of stumbles on her words.
GEORGINA- I do
trip on my words sometimes.
EMMA- She’s
doing two hours of live.
NIKKI- I
wouldn’t have any of this [laughs].
EMMA- I
was actually about to say that I love the stumbles because again it makes me
feel more like she’s in the room with me, and it’s more natural and normal. And
Tess stumbles, Claudia stumbles, the judges stumble; Georgina’s part of the
cast now for me. But I think it’s natural. And how would she not?
GEORGINA- And
Georgina doesn’t have autocue.
EMMA- How
would she not for two hours? And that leads me to my next question. What
happens if you need the loo?
GEORGINA- Oh,
do you know what, this is the big question I was asking myself before we
started. We had a practice run and I timed how long it took me to get to the
toilet, pee, wash my hands and get back again. I got it down to two minutes ten
seconds. Especially when it’s two hours 20 minutes, I was like I’m going to
have to go; it’s happening, we can’t pretend it’s not.
EMMA- Yeah,
because you have to lubricate your voice, you have to drink a bit of water.
GEORGINA- Well,
this is it, I have to have something going in. But I normally time it sort of
once I’ve described them going up the stairs, which is sometimes the only
opportunity I get to describe the costumes really properly, once they’re
chatting with Claudia in the Clauditorium I know I’ve got the time to quickly
whip out and whip back again and not sound too out of breath for the next thing
that’s going to happen [laughs].
NIKKI- Do
you struggle with timings? Because when they come down the stairs it’s quite
quick, and I’d imagine the outfits are a massive part of Strictly, and the
make-up and the hair.
GEORGINA- I
know, and they’re working on them right up until the last minute, so it’s the
one thing that we don’t have any access to beforehand to describe. So, my
lovely colleague Pauline, as they are coming down the stairs, I don’t have time
to say anything, she is furiously trying to write out descriptions of what
they’re wearing. And there’s a lot of frantic ing of notes going on between
us.
EMMA- That’s
a great insight as well.
NIKKI- Sweet
Georgina, would you do us a favour at
Access All?
GEORGINA- Oh
always. Go on.
NIKKI- Would
you smuggle a word in for us so we could feel, we don’t want to get you sacked…
GEORGINA- Yeah,
we’ll put that in [laughs].
NIKKI- I
don’t know what the word… Em, have you any ideas? I was thinking peanuts but I
think that’s terrible.
GEORGINA- Can
we put foxy in maybe?
EMMA- Foxy,
let’s do that.
GEORGINA- I’ll
try and throw a foxy in.
NIKKI- That
would be quite a good one, wouldn’t it?
EMMA- Yes,
I think because you could say that in lots of different ways.
NIKKI- Georgina,
it’s been so, so lovely having you in. And to be here with Emma as well in the
studio and to have you between us – sounded wrong – but we’ve loved it.
GEORGINA- [Laughs].
EMMA- It’s
been a joy.
NIKKI- It’s
been a joy, it really has. And it is a massive thing that you’re here.
EMMA- Do
you feel on the cusp of a big, big thing?
GEORGINA- I
really hope so. I’m enjoying it so much and the has been so tremendous
that I just can’t see us stopping now.
NIKKI- I
know it’s important, but I’d put your prices up, love [laughter].
MUSIC- Access
All with Nikki Fox.
NIKKI- Now,
there’s always one TV programme from your childhood that will forever stick in
your mind. For me it’s Button Moon Funhouse, there’s a whole lot of fun, Round
the Twist with the best theme tune ever. Do you it, Ems?
EMMA- [Singing]
Have you ever, ever felt like this.
NIKKI- I
could go on. But our next guest is hoping her brand new stop-motion series,
MixMups – I love it – is going to stay in the hearts of millions of children
around the world for years to come. We are ed today by Rebecca Atkinson.
Hello.
REBECCA- Hello.
Thank you so much for having me. I’m very excited to be here.
NIKKI- Honestly,
it’s so lovely having you on. I was MixMupping last night, having the time of
my life [laughs]. But for people that haven’t seen it yet it’s your brand new
show. Do you want to give us a flavour of what it’s all about?
REBECCA- Sure.
So, MixMups is a new 52-part stop-motion series for preschool children. And it
basically centres around three little friends who live in a helter-skelter
house. They’ve got a magic wooden spoon and a mixing box, and they place
objects in this mixing box and they mix up the magic inside the box and they
get sucked into the box to go on adventures inside the box. So, it's really
about young children’s ability to transcend reality and disappear into their imagination.
[Clip]
NARRATOR- In
Mixington Valley the MixMups play. What kind of adventure will they mix up
today?
SPIN- What
are you looking at, Giggle?
POCKETS- The
moon. It’s ginormous and bright yellow, and it’s covered in holes just like
cheese.
SPIN- Maybe
it is cheese.
GIGGLE- Let
me see, please!
[End of clip]
NIKKI- Now,
tell us about the characters. Because we’ve not just got on you’re here for
laughs, we are a disability podcast, aren’t we Rebecca, so tell us about the
characters.
REBECCA- So,
the characters are three main characters: there’s Pocket the bear; she’s got
lots of pockets around her body for keeping things near and safe and organised.
And she’s a visually impaired character so she’s got tunnel vision, the same as
me. She’s got a guide dog called Yapette, and she’s got a white can as well. We’ve
then got Giggle the cat.
NIKKI- Oh,
the cat.
REBECCA- Giggle
the stripey cat who uses a wheelchair.
NIKKI- I
love the cat in the wheelchair.
REBECCA- She
has an assistance guinea pig called Roller Guinea. And then we’ve got Spin who
is a little red rabbit. And Spin is non-disabled, but he’s a very, very busy
little guy.
NIKKI- You
had to do it I suppose, didn’t you?
EMMA- Talking
non-disabled.
NIKKI- Chuck
one of the non-disableds in, why not?
REBECCA- [Laughs]
well it’s all about subversion this series. So, I looked very hard when I was
developing it about how disability has been handled in children’s industries
before and how we can creatively move on with that in MixMups. So, those are
the three main characters with their two assistance pets. And then there’s
another character, and adult character, called the Lucky-Loover Bird, who is a
little grey trunk-beaked creature. She’s sort of part elephant, part dolphin,
part bird, and she is the MixMups’ magical neighbour, and she’s the keeper of
the magic. And then in every episode they go on these adventures, whether
that’s to the beach or, I don’t know, baking or whatever the theme is. And they
always meet the Lucky-Loover bird on their adventures and she helps them to
solve their problems and guide them. And she had the mantra which is that
there’s always another way. So, whatever the problem is that they encounter,
whatever the barrier is they encounter, she guides them to realise that there’s
another way to do things.
NIKKI- You
first came up with this series idea, didn’t you, seven years ago, is that
right?
REBECCA- Eight
years actually to get MixMups funded, produced and onto the screen. I started
this journey in 2015 when I noticed that there were very few representations of
disability in toys. I started something called The Toy Like Me campaign back
then to call on the global toy industry to better represent disabled children
in their products.
NIKKI- Oh
I that. Was that you?
REBECCA- Yeah.
So, that’s where it all started. I had two children of my own, and I’d just got
a guide dog, and I noticed that there were no positive representations of
disability in toys. So, I started making over toys with Fimo modelling clay and
taking high-res images of what they might look like, so what Barbie might look
like if she had a hot pink hearing aid, or what Tinkerbell might look like if
she had an arm splint. I put these images online and they went viral. There was
a lot of quite emotional response really, people saying, ‘I want that, where…?
Why didn’t I have that when I was a child?’ or they wanted it for their
disabled child.
And so
in the course of that I did some consultation work for a global toy brand, but
what happened was they came back with design iterations, even after extensive
consultation, which were just basically still pandering to stereotypes about
visually impaired people, big dark glasses. And it was at that point that I
realised okay, so campaigning to get the industry to change is not enough; I am
going to go back and create a brand myself.
EMMA- So,
you’re not using stereotypes. If you’re not using the big dark glasses what are
you using to represent disability in your characters?
REBECCA- I
am using play basically. So, when I first started developing this series I
looked at play theory, play schemas, play personalities that we all have as
young children, how we might be driven towards wheeled play or we might be
driven towards dres. And then I used that to create characters that are
driven by their play needs first. And then added in the disabilities and the
impairments to round out their characters. And I’ve worked very closely with
the animation team to make sure that those characters’ range of movement; so
with the wheelchair what she can and can’t do is based on the range of
movement of an individual person. Because one wheelchair might actually be
able to stand and walk short distances; another person might need to use a
hoist and doesn’t walk at all.
NIKKI- Yeah,
because everyone always thinks, because I sit down, everyone thinks I can move
my arms. But I’m as buff as Ade Adepitan.
EMMA- But
what I love though is that it’s not just the characters where disability is
included and it’s all inclusive, but in a nice gentle nuanced way, rather than
slapping you in the face thing, it’s also in the adventures that they go on.
One of your episodes is about the Easter Bunny, isn’t it? Tell us a bit more
about that.
REBECCA- Oh,
that’s one of my favourite episodes. So, when they get into the adventure they
find themselves on an Easter egg hunt, but it’s a beepy Easter egg hunt, so the
eggs beep from the outset:
[Clip]
POCKETS- [Beep]
did you hear that beep?
SPIN- What?
POCKETS- I
think it’s this way.
[End of clip]
EMMA- Love
it.
REBECCA- Which
was inspired by my godson actually who’s blind, and his mum had created a
beeping egg hunt for him so he could listen for the eggs. So, when the MixMups
get into this adventure the world is set up for them, so it’s like a fantasy
world, if everybody was blind…
EMMA- It
is a fantasy world if it’s set up for disabled kids, definitely a fantasy
world.
NIKKI- [Laughs].
REBECCA- It
is. So, I sort of like okay, so disabled children are excluded from so much,
but if this show is being made by a disabled person, myself, then how do I
create a small world which is how the world would be if it was fully inclusive.
NIKKI- Yeah,
yeah.
REBECCA- If
it was fully inclusive you would go on the Easter egg hunt and it would already
be beeping, and so the visually impaired character can hear the eggs and enter
into that hunt on an even footing.
NIKKI- What
you need to do now, Rebecca, is when the characters go into this world where
everything is perfect you need to then introduce non-disabled characters who
really struggle in that world.
REBECCA- There
is a story where they go and they do a sports day race:
[Clip]
VOICE- On
your marks, get set, go!
[End of clip]
REBECCA- But
Spin, who is non-disabled, struggles to win a race because first of all the
wheelchair is faster than everybody else and keeps on winning:
[Clip]
VOICE- I’m
faster than you because I’ve got wheels.
[End of clip]
REBECCA- Then
they slow the race down and the visually impaired character wins because she’s
very good at being cautious and sort of grounded in her movement:
[Clip]
POCKETS- Ooh,
I’m the winner!
SPIN- That’s
not fair. Pockets weren’t even going very fast.
[End of clip]
REBECCA- And
then eventually they have to devise a zigzag race which the non-disabled
character finally wins because he can get round the corners faster than the
wheelchair and the guide dog . And an easy way to write that story would
have been to do what you see again and again, which is everybody let the
disabled characters win by hanging back. And that’s an ableist lens of saying
oh, we let them win.
NIKKI- Yeah.
REBECCA- Whereas
this is about saying okay, everyone can win if the race is right.
NIKKI- Yeah,
that’s lovely.
EMMA- Yeah.
It’s stop-motion. I don’t like to mention that I’m blind very much, Rebecca.
NIKKI- She
mentions it all time Rebecca, like literally.
EMMA- Poor
Nikki.
NIKKI- She
doesn’t stop.
EMMA- But
the fact is that I don’t know what stop-motion is. So, what’s stop-motion?
REBECCA- Okay,
you create physical puppets, so the puppets are about 10, 11, 12 inches tall.
What’s been really interesting about it is that they have been working very
closely with me to capture the sort of authentic nuance of disabled body
language. We will talk to them about some of the finer little details in this
visually impaired character and the wheelchair character. So, the visually
impaired character sometimes misjudges the doorways and might just sort of
knock into the door. She might double tap to find things; she’s quite tactile.
I trained the animation team in how to get that puppet to use a long cane
correctly.
EMMA- Do
you I’ve told you about this, Nikki, about the cane? You put one foot
out, you put the cane the other side, then you put the other foot out.
NIKKI- Like
a crutch don’t you, you were saying?
EMMA- Well,
no, you just cover yourself, so you’ve got the cane out of the foot out at any
one time on each side, so you’re covering each side.
REBECCA- And
also make sure that we showed the range between, you know disability is not
binary, so it’s not a case of you can walk or you have to use a wheelchair all
the time. The children I consulted they wanted to see the grey areas in between
and they wanted to see this character sat on the floor, they wanted to see her
sat on the sofa and not always using her chair in public.
NIKKI- Someone
asked me if I showered in my scooter.
EMMA- [Laughs].
NIKKI- Crucial
final question though, Rebecca: have you got the catchy theme tune?
REBECCA- There
is a catchy theme tune. I’m not going to try and sing it for you because I’m am
the world’s worst singer. But yeah, there’s a very, very sweet catchy theme
tune which is sung by the children who do the voices for MixMups. Which I must
add, they’re all disabled actors. All four roles in the show are disabled
actors. So, the Lucky-Loover bird is played by Gillian Dean who’s blind, and
then we’ve got three disabled child actors playing the lead roles of Pockets,
Giggle and Spin.
NIKKI- [Theme
music playing] we can hear it going now.
EMMA- We
can hear it, Rebecca, and I’m dancing.
REBECCA- Can
you?
EMMA- Blind
girl dancing.
REBECCA- It’s
like an earworm, it will probably be in there forever.
NIKKI- Moving
my head.
EMMA- Rebecca,
thank you so much.
REBECCA- Thank
you so much for having me.
NIKKI- Lovely.
Well, if you want to catch the MixMups go to Channel 5, Milkshake, and from the
4th November you can watch them every week.
EMMA- So,
that’s us mixing up the MixBups…MixMups. It’s a bit of a tongue twister that.
NIKKI- It
is a tongue twister.
EMMA- With
Rebecca. But I’m looking forward to watching that with my children.
NIKKI- Are
they the right age for them?
EMMA- They’re
a little bit old but I’m going to make them watch it. It’s disability, they
need to learn [laughs].
NIKKI- They’ve
got a blind mum, I think they’re doing all right.
EMMA- Oh,
shove it down their throats, that’s what I say.
NIKKI- And
I don’t have kids so I’ll just get Buddy to watch, my assistance dog.
EMMA- Yeah.
NIKKI- What
do you reckon? Well, we love hearing from you. You can keep up to date
with us obviously on all the socials, on
Twitter or X or whatever it’s called. And you can email us accessall@bbc.co.uk, because we
absolutely love to hear what you think of the show.
EMMA- We
do.
NIKKI- And
what you want us to look into or speak about or whatever.
EMMA- Yes
please. I do have some housekeeping notes if you like.
NIKKI- Ooh,
go on.
EMMA- So,
if you listen to us on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts, or on your
smart speaker, the next episode will not arrive next Thursday.
NIKKI- Ah!
EMMA- Oh
no. Because new episodes will be appearing on Monday nights from now on. So,
you won’t have one next Thursday but you’ll have one the following Monday and
every Monday after that.
NIKKI- So,
we’re going to be starting your week. It feels like there’s more pressure
involved there, Ems.
EMMA- Well,
we’re setting the agenda, darling.
NIKKI- [Laughs]
yeah. We’re going to start your week rather than end it, eh. Got that everyone?
Is that good?
EMMA- Setting
you up for an excellent week I’d say.
NIKKI- Beautiful.
Well, thank you so much for listening. We’ll say goodbye.
EMMA- Bye.
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