24th February 2023
bbc.co.uk/accessall
Access All – episode 41
Presented by Nikki Fox and
Emma Tracey
NIKKI- The
thing is, right, I do very long hours so I kind of occasionally sneak in a wax
after the podcast. It’s the perfect timing, perfect location. I’m going for the
full body.
EMMA- The
pain! I do not like pain. Is it painful?
NIKKI- I
love a bit of pain. It’s not that I love pain, I’m used to pain. It doesn’t
bother me, I’m very good, I just lie there, boom-boom-boom let’s get it done. But
literally I am a beast. For a blonde person, I am hairy. I mean hair-ree. Hair-ree!
EMMA- [Laughs]
NIKKI- Woo!
My toes. My toes.
EMMA- Stop
it! [Laughs]
NIKKI- I
literally have to get every single individual toe done. I mean I won’t talk
about any other areas, but just trust me. It would be easier just to dip my
whole body in that hot wax and just find a way of protecting the hair and the
eyebrows and lashes and just go for it and peel it off.
EMMA- Do
you go to a special disability waxing house?
NIKKI- There
she goes. [Laughs]
EMMA- Do
you?
NIKKI- Do
you know what, I don’t. But I do have to find somewhere that does have a bed
that goes up and down. That is a good point. And when I was younger I was very
scared, because I thought to myself I’ll get on the bed because I’ll have
someone with me to help me, but then what if I need to move my leg and I can’t
do it that particular time myself and would they mind? I put it off for ages,
and then at like 20 I thought no I’m going to tackle this, I’m going to go and
I’m going to be brave. And actually some of the friendliest people and the friendliest
places are where you get your wax, and every single person has helped me.
EMMA- Well
actually you’re right.
NIKKI- But
Emma, look, I just realised you’re asking me those questions and just as a way
so I don’t answer your question.
EMMA- Yeah,
so what else can I ask you about waxing? Er ...
NIKKI- So
what do you do? Are you a shaver, Emma, or do you use hot wax?
EMMA- Er!
MUSIC- Theme
music
NIKKI- It’s
Access All. We are all about disability, mental health and so much more, all in
a tightly packed nifty little weekly podcast. I’m Nikki Fox, and I’m in London.
EMMA- And
I’m Emma Tracey, and I’m in Edinburgh.
NIKKI- This
week a big mental health charity is asking government to keep its promise. And
later, we have got the hardest working woman in disability showbiz.
EMMA- That’s
a thing, is it, disability showbusiness?
NIKKI- Yeah,
well it really is, because it’s Rosie Jones. It’s Rosie Jones!
EMMA- This
business we call disability showbiz.
NIKKI- [Sings]
“Showbiz”.
EMMA- Tell
your friends and colleagues and get them to subscribe to us on BBC
Sounds, or wherever you get your podcast from.
MUSIC- Music
NIKKI- The
nation’s mental health is at an all-time low, and we all know the pandemic made
an already bad situation worse. Last April the government promised to create a
10 year mental health plan for England. Emma has more detail.
EMMA- Yes.
Mental health charities like Rethink and others asked their to get
involved and to feed into that plan, and 5,000 people did so. However, this
January it was announced that the plan would be scrapped and it would be
brought into a whole body strategy which would include medical conditions like dementia,
cancer, diabetes and arthritis.
NIKKI- We’ve
got a clip here from the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, Steve
Barclay, making his announcement in the House of Commons.
STEVE- Mr
Speaker, I am pleased to announce that we will be developing and publishing a
major conditions strategy. Around 60% of disability-adjusted life years in
England are ed for by just six conditions: across cancer; cardiovascular
disease; chronic respiratory disease; dementia; muscular skeletal disease; and
mental health. An increasing number of us live with one or more of these
conditions. Tackling them is a significant opportunity to improve the lives of
millions of people and our goal to improve healthy life expectancy. This
work will bring together our existing commitments to develop plans for mental
health, cancer, dementia and health disparities, and our new strategy will
shift our focus to focus on integrated whole person care.
NIKKI- The
charity Rethink has not taken this lying down and has launched its Keep Your
Promise campaign to see if they can get the government to reconsider. To talk
more about this, we are ed by Jeremy Bernhaut who is the Head of Policy and
Influencing at Rethink. We’re also ed by Rick Burgess, and Rick is from
Recovery in the Bin, which describes itself as an activist collective of mental
health survivors and ers. Hello Jeremy, hello Rick.
RICK- Hiya.
JEREMY- Hello.
Thanks for having us.
NIKKI- I’m
going to start with you, Jeremy. What had been the hope last April when the
government announced its 10 year mental health plan?
JEREMY- So,
at Rethink Mental Illness, we’ve been calling for a cross-government plan for
mental health and wellbeing for several years. At the moment we have soaring
demand for NHS services, and there’s a need to address what’s causing people to
be unwell in the first place, and also to address what can help them get better
after they’re ill aside from just the services that are funded by the NHS. So
we’re talking about the work that government can do with people’s housing, with
the way people interact with the welfare system, the way that schools tackle
mental health.
And last
April it seemed the government got it. They launched a consultation paper and a
discussion document about a 10 year plan for mental health and wellbeing that
would seek to tackle the drivers of poor mental health across the whole of
society, and would build a plan that would bring in every government department
and every arm of the state to try its hardest to prevent people from getting
ill, and to help them get better when they do.
We hoped
they were going to publish this plan, they told us they were going to before
the end of the year, but a few weeks ago it emerged that that plan has now been
scrapped in favour of a much more shorter-term plan that blends mental health
with a whole range of other conditions and loses that important focus that we
need. We’re urging the government to reconsider and to publish the 10 year plan
that’s needed in order to address the soaring demand that the NHS is facing.
NIKKI- Is
it the merging and the shortness, are they the two main issues for you?
JEREMY- At
the moment there is so much pressure on NHS services because people are getting
ill, and it’s really hard to address your mental health if you’re worried about
your housing, or if you’re interacting with the benefits system, and the way
the benefits system is treating you is in of itself affecting your mental
health. What it seemed like the government got last year, was that the
government has at its hands a whole load of government departments filled with
smart people who are able to think through how the policies of each of those
government departments can contribute to better mental health. That would have
been a world leading approach to addressing the mental health crisis in this
country.
It’s that
plan that’s really badly needed, and that’s why we’re asking people to write to
their MPs, and several hundred have so far, calling for this plan to be
reintroduced in order that it can tackle mental health over the long-term, help
people get better, and reduce that demand on the NHS.
EMMA- 5,000
people fed into the consultation. What was their reaction? How did they feel
when the plan was scrapped and this strategy was brought in instead?
JEREMY- The
government have now come back to us and asked us for help with finding people
with mental illness to help shape the major conditions strategy. And it’s
actually really hard to go back to people and say, “You know you helped us
shape the plan that they were working on last year? Well now we’ve got a plan
which isn’t just about mental health and is shorter-term and we kind of need
your help shaping this plan now”. And that’s a really difficult ask for people,
because people are naturally really disappointed, and they feel like the time
and the energy and the effort of telling their own personal stories and giving
their views has gone to waste. So, it’s disappointing all round. I think that
if the government were to change their mind and reintroduce the 10 year plan
for mental health and wellbeing, I think that would be met with a lot of
enthusiasm.
NIKKI- Rick,
I want to bring you in here. Thank you so much, Jeremy. I just want to bring
you in here now as well. You’ve got personal experience of mental health
challenges. Do you mind first off just telling us a little bit about that
experience for you?
RICK- Well
I’m part of a growing cohort of which I guess we’re described as service
avoiders. People who have had experience of the system and that experience was
not good, and we find ways to avoid it and rely on friends, peer groups and
good luck really. If you go into crisis,
it is debateable whether you would want to ask for help from services or not. So,
I’m a service avoider.
NIKKI- Service
avoider. That’s very interesting, Rick. I would like to speak to you more about
that actually. But I just want to go back to the 10 year plan, because you
obviously knew it was being created last year, and I wonder what your hopes
were for it?
RICK- Our
hopes weren’t high because there was no promise of funding behind the strategy.
So when it was abandoned, and what was interesting is they managed to find a
way of not only of abandoning not a particularly promising or funded strategy,
and then rather than just leave with kind of nothing, they’ve managed to find a
new approach which seems worse than doing nothing. From the minister’s
announcement, it does suggest it’s from the point-of-view of sort of the
management of population health in the name of saving money and pushing people
into employment. And to be honest, at present none of the political parties
appear to be willing to actually grasp the huge job that is needed and to take
mental health seriously.
EMMA- The
announcement that the mental health plan is to be replaced has left some people
furious. We heard from a different Nicky, a 39 year old north Londoner who
works as a senior autism practitioner in a special needs school.
NICKY- I
didn’t know about the 10 year plan, but when I heard about the plan and that it
had been scrapped, I felt angry. There was a whole big thing during COVID about
anxiety and taking care of your mental health. But when you’re like me and so
many others who don’t have the personal and not bad enough to need
, you’re on your own. The government is basically saying we can’t see
what’s wrong with you so we won’t be taking it into . That’s until there
is an incident where we will report that the person involved may have had
mental health needs.
NIKKI- Well,
we’ve got a government statement here actually, because we reached out to the
Department of Health and Social Care to ask about all of this, and it said it’s
grateful to everyone who took part in the consultation and it would feed into
the development of the policies. It goes on to say, “a ed up major
conditions strategy will ensure our approach to the treatment and prevention of
the conditions covered, is ed up with care centred around the patient”. We’ll
keep you updated on this story, and thank you both so much for coming in today.
RICK- Thanks
very much.
JEREMY- Lovely
to meet you all.
EMMA- Bye.
MUSIC- Access
All
NIKKI- Well
it’s a story as old as time, ‘innit, for disabled people. We are talking
obstacles in the street. It doesn’t sound particularly sexy but it’s very
painful. Wales is making plans to fine drivers £70 if they park on a pavement,
which would then get in the way of someone that needed a bit more space. In
Scotland, they want to make it easier to put chairs and tables outside
restaurants by withdrawing the need for a permit. So one’s trying to get rid of
the obstacle, the other is trying to create one. To help us understand what it
feels like to come up against obstacles when really you just want to go and get
a pint with some mates, we have got Holly Garrow from campaigning organisation
Transport for All. Hello, Holly.
HOLLY- Hi.
Thanks for having me.
NIKKI- Let’s
start with this street furniture issue. This all came about, didn’t it, around
the pandemic, because I know I got quite a few emails about this in my role as
disability correspondent, and people were saying it looks great, I love the
whole kind of Mediterranean vibe, but I literally can’t get anywhere. This was
mainly London. Scotland hopes to change the law next month, as I was saying. What
will more chairs and tables outside mean for you?
HOLLY- I’m
a part-time wheelchair , and when I’m not in my wheelchair I’m using a
walking stick, so it’s actually different for me depending on the day. As a
wheelchair , if I’m going down the street and my path is blocked by street furniture,
it’s not just massively inconvenient, it can be hazardous because it might mean
that I need to try and get onto a road to get past. It could mean that I need
to rethink my whole journey. If I’m running for an appointment then I’ll be
late for that. I have to rethink a lot of things going on there. As someone
with a walking stick and an energy limiting condition, it’s actually quite
helpful to come across street furniture where I could take a seat if needed.
EMMA- If
it’s seen to be obstruction, the council can ask restaurants to take the
furniture inside. Is that a good compromise? Is that a reasonable thing to be
asked to do, to complain about something before it’s changed?
HOLLY- It’s
essential that there is somewhere where you can complain if you need to. But it’s
been that burden on disabled people for a long time that we have to make these
complaints and we have to campaign for ourselves, and often the way that we’re
asked to make complaints isn’t necessarily accessible. Really at the end of the
day, the responsibility should be on councils and local authorities to make
these areas safe and accessible in the first place.
NIKKI- I’m
hearing a lot of disabled people at the moment saying we just really don’t want
to have to fight all the time and get on with life. But on the other story,
Holly, Wales wants to bring in fines for pavement parking, which for many would
be very welcome. But Holly, if a pavement is blocked by a car, how do wheelchair
s deal with that?
HOLLY- It
can be very difficult. If there’s not a lot of room to go past the car on a
pavement, which a lot of the time there isn’t when you’re in a wheelchair, you’re
left with the very dangerous option of I have to go onto the road and manoeuvre
around it. You don’t know how busy that road’s going to be. As a wheelchair
, I can’t see over the car so I’m not really sure what the incoming traffic
looks like. There’s not necessarily even going to be a dropped kerb to help me
get onto the road, so it might be that I just have to turn around and rethink
my entire route.
NIKKI- Different
laws apply, don’t they, depending on where you are in the UK. Scotland already
has a law against it, but they haven’t been enforced yet. Pavement parking is
illegal in London. Holly, do you think these laws should just be UK wide?
HOLLY- Oh
absolutely, yeah. We did a research recently with Sustrans, the Disabled
Citizens’ Inquiry on Walking and Wheeling, and from that we gathered about 70%
of disabled people said that they would be able to walk or wheel more if the
pavement parking and other obstructions were reduced. I think that’s just as clear
as day that this is an issue that needs to be addressed.
EMMA- I
just want to briefly mention that Transport for All did have a campaign called
Trim Your Bush, Nikki, just because I know you’re really into waxing etc today,
and it was about overhanging foliage and blind people, and asking people to get
their secateurs out and lob off any branches or whatever that blind people
might hit. When you’re walking along, you’re only getting information from your
white cane on the floor, and you’re not getting it from head height. Trim your
bush guys, trim your bush.
NIKKI- On
that note, I will be removing my foliage. It’s been so lovely to speak to you,
Holly. I know a lot of disabled people are getting very tired of having to
fight for basic rights like this, but I do appreciate you coming on and having
a chat. And keep up all the work that you’re doing.
HOLLY- Thank
you so much for having me on to chat.
EMMA- We
actually didn’t even get to mention the petitions that were brought to Downing
Street this week by people who are worried about changes in staff levels in
trains and on stations. I love that ‘on stations’ business. But yeah, it’s a
really serious thing and we didn’t get to mention that either.
NIKKI- And
also, Sophie Morgan’s campaign that she’s working on to improve the aviation
industry for disabled people. I mean she’s been everywhere. She was on BBC
Breakfast this morning. She’s got this letter that she’s urging everyone to go
onto Disability Rights UK, and sign and send to your local MP. Accessible
bathrooms, wheelchair spaces on planes, amongst many other issues.
EMMA- Stuff
we’ve been banging on about since we started last April, and will continue to
go on about until changes are made, I reckon.
NIKKI- If
you want to get in touch with us, you can do that in all manner of ways. Tell
us what you want us to look into. Do you want us to talk about waxing more?
EMMA- No.
NIKKI- You
can get in touch via WhatsApp, 0330 1239480. Or you could email us like apparently
Skippy, Ian Cook and others have. Our address is accessall@bbc.co.uk We can’t answer
everyone, but I promise you we will read every message we get.
MUSIC- Access
All
NIKKI- Hello.
Come on in. It’s my favourite bird off the telly. How are you? She’s looking
dead cool again, Ems, that Rosie Jones.
EMMA- Of
course she is. What else would she be looking?
NIKKI- Wet
your cans on, girl. Thank you for coming in again.
ROSIE- I
feel like we can talk for hours.
NIKKI- I
know. I know.
ROSIE- Yeah.
NIKKI- My
mission in life is to at some point catch you for a bevvie.
ROSIE- Exactly.
Oh my goodness, how are we here again and not in the pub?
NIKKI- She
has a got a very good booty, Emma.
EMMA- Who?
Rosie?
ROSIE- Me!
NIKKI- Yeah,
she’s got a great bum.
ROSIE- Fun
fact, only one bum cheek has she got, because of how I walk I really turn out
one bum cheek. So I could get half a ‘Rear of the Year’.
EMMA- Just
half?
ROSIE- Yeah.
NIKKI- You
know honestly Ems, there’s an actual thing in this, because I’ve got quite a
good bum and it’s very big and it’s very high, right, and people see me and
they’re like, “Oh my goodness, your bum is like amazing”. It’s because of how I
used to walk always on my toes.
ROSIE- Yeah.
NIKKI- It
was like I was in high heels from a baby.
ROSIE- Yeah.
Yeah.
EMMA- I
have no bum. Maybe that’s because I’ve never had trouble walking.
ROSIE- Yeah.
You need to have problems walking.
NIKKI- Acquire
a physical disability, love!
ROSIE- Then
you would have a cracking arse.
EMMA- Okay.
Okay.
NIKKI- Right,
shall we do it? We are now with comedian, writer, author, actor, legend. She’s
telling me to keep going, keep going.
ROSIE- Keep
going.
NIKKI- It’s
only Rosie Jones. Rosie Jones is back with us.
ROSIE- Hello.
NIKKI- Hello,
Rosie. Let’s start with the tour, because the tour is coming. How are you
feeling about it?
ROSIE- I’m
feeling good. It’s interesting because this will be my first ever tour, which
people are surprised about. But I’ve really only been doing comedy for six
years, and two of those were wiped out by a pandemic. So, yeah I’m excited. I’m
a little bit scared.
NIKKI- Do
you think a lot of comedians feel that way though? People paying to see you,
there is a lot of pressure on that.
ROSIE- I’m
constantly frightened that internalised ableism and going out thinking of a
comedian stereotype that I grew up with, which was male, non-disabled,
straight, loud, talking really quick. And when you come to see me, sure you don’t
get fast paced jokes, but I guarantee you will laugh a lot. So yeah, I mean I
guess being a woman you do have imposter syndrome, but then you go, ‘No way. I work hard and I’m worthy of my own tour’.
NIKKI- Yes.
And you’ve worked so hard. If you think about it, you’ve probably been on more
shows that Romesh Ranganathan. That’s the right pronunciation, isn’t it?
ROSIE- Yeah.
NIKKI- Lovely
Romesh, I love him. I was the Weakest Link and he was very nice to me. I was
first off.
ROSIE- Oh
no.
NIKKI- Yeah.
But you’ve been on so many shows. Do you think there’s a flipside to that, that
other comedians might be looking thinking, ‘That Rosie, she’s on everything.
She’s nicking all the jobs’.
EMMA- All
the disabled comedian jobs.
ROSIE- That’s
it. And actually selfishly I like that, because it’s bought me a lovely house. I’m
very rich. I feel like there’s several different answers I could give. Yes I’m
on TV, I’m on the radio a lot, but by me going on those shows and using my
platform, it’s my hope and my dream that I can encourage more disabled people
to come into the industry. I don’t think I’m taking jobs from other disabled
people. We’re still unfortunately at a stage where they’re getting either me or
another white, straight, non-disabled person. So it is my ultimate dream that I
can go on a show and be amongst two/three/four other disabled people. But
right now we need more people to comedy.
EMMA- Yeah.
So you’re in the door, you have a platform, and you’ve also used that for
political reasons and gone on Question Time. Is that a good thing for a
comedian to do? What was your experience of Question Time?
ROSIE- I’ve
done it twice now, and both times I started trending on Twitter from all the
abuse I was getting.
NIKKI- Oh,
Rosie.
EMMA- What
were they saying to you?
ROSIE- Literally
every ableist abuse under the sun. They told me that I should be in a cage.
NIKKI- What?!
ROSIE- I
shouldn’t be on TV. I should die. And it was because I was exposing myself to a
different kind of audience. I think Question Time is brilliant, but it attracts
a lot of angry people, and not only being female, disabled, gay. So, would I do
it again? Yes. But I would go in there more prepared. I’d probably shut my
Twitter down for a few weeks. But yeah, it is hard because I will always be
political, I will always speak for what I believe, I will always champion
diversity. But it’s hard, and it’s exhausting.
NIKKI- When
we were talking about it before, I find that really upsetting actually that
level that you got. When we were talking about it as a team I was like, “Oh
yeah, when I first went on Watchdog I got told that I had eyebrows like
McDonald’s golden arches”. Do you know what I mean? It was the visual kind of
stuff. And Nikki Fox looked strange. But that level, that must have been hard.
ROSIE- Yeah.
And I think being a woman and being gay means that every time I’m on TV I’ll
get a comment about what I sound like, my disability, my weight, and then what
I look like, my teeth, my hair, and then the gay stuff. And what is awful, is
every single one of those negative thoughts, I can go on social media right now
and a stranger will be saying them back to me. So you’re right, yeah, whatever
thoughts you’ve ever had, I’m here to say you’re right. It’s so hard.
I’m trying
to bring this back to my normal positive self, but it’s on my mind quite a lot,
because I’m currently filming a documentary about online abuse and ableism, and
that has been quite hard for me because a lot of the things that I’ve shut
away, mashed over, I’ve had to confront. And because of that, I’m in therapy. I
would recommend therapy for literally everyone out there, because I’m really
dealing with a lot of internalised ableism and things that I probably painted
over with a joke. But what I will say is, by talking about this I feel a lot of
release, and it’s actually going. I am [inaudible], I am not that
over-optimistic, eternally happy human being who goes, “I love being disabled
every day”, because I don’t because society wears me down. I now think in order
to eradicate that, in order to face the abuses, I’ve got to come here and go,
“You know what, it’s not okay”.
NIKKI- Oh
Rosie.
EMMA- Oh
my god, you’re fabulous.
NIKKI- I
know. Even as a child I’d be like, “Yeah, I love being disabled”. When’s the
tour? When does it start?
ROSIE- It’s
starting next week, 3rd March.
NIKKI- That’s
my birthday!
ROSIE- Oh,
good!
EMMA- You
must have felt under some pressure to make all the rooms accessible this time
after people jumping on your head.
ROSIE- My
production company had to ring up every venue and say, “Right, what can you do?”,
and any venue that said, “No we can’t do that”, we were like, “Right, Rosie won’t
go there”.
NIKKI- See
you later, Alligator.
ROSIE- Yeah.
NIKKI- You
see, that’s good. These things that you’re doing, just literally touring will
hopefully change certain things, because it might make venues think twice.
EMMA- Yeah.
Just chip, chip, chipping away.
NIKKI- Chip,
chipping away. And do you have rider, Rosie Jones, is what I want to know?
What’s in your rider?
ROSIE- Oh
my god, it says the most embarrassing thing.
NIKKI- Go
on.
ROSIE- Cup
of tea.
MUSIC- Music
NIKKI- That’s
another show over. I’m off to sneak in a full body wax.
EMMA- And
I’m off to make some belated disability friendly pancakes.
NIKKI- Oh
lush. You can subscribe to us on BBC Sounds, look for Access All, and if you
like us just tell everyone you know.
EMMA- And
top tip, if you’ve got the BBC Sounds skill on your smart speaker say, “Ask the
BBC for Access All” and it’ll play you the latest episode.
NIKKI- How
smart is that?! Until next week everyone.
EMMA- Goodbye.
NIKKI- Bye.
MUSIC- Music
NIKKI- What
is a disability friendly pancake, Em?
EMMA- I
think it’s one you don’t have to toss, maybe?
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