18th March 2022
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast
Ukraine War
Presented by Emma Tracey
Emma- Hello, and thank
you for pressing play on the BBC Ouch podcast. Actually this is the very last
episode from Ouch. We’ll be revealing an exciting new look shortly, and there
will be more about that later in this episode.
Far
more important matters are on our minds today though. We’ll be speaking to two
disabled women who fled their homes as a result of the war on Ukraine.
music- Featuring
clips.
Emma- I’m Emma Tracey.
And just to say that the two stories you’re going to hear in this episode were
recorded much earlier in the invasion. Since then we’ve seen so much
devastation and the fear and struggle of those still inside the country. Later
you’ll hear me speak to an autistic Russian journalist who felt compelled to
leave her home in Moscow after an article she wrote condemning the Ukraine
invasion received more attention than she was expecting.
First
though my colleague, Ellis Palmer, talks to Tanya Herasymova. Tanya is a
wheelchair . She’s also working for a Ukrainian disabled person’s
organisation, Fight For Our Right. Tanya fled to Poland at the start of the
invasion, and she begins by describing that journey.
Tanya- It was okay,
but when it’s a lot of people, when people are in a panic it was really hard
emotional.
Ellis- How did
you get from Lviv to safety in Poland?
Tanya- We don’t know
what to expect on our way. We thought that we will need to walk to the border,
like 8kms, and my mum was shocked. She just said to me no, you should go alone,
I can do it. But thanks to people who took us to the minibus and arrived us
almost to the border we didn’t need to go so long way. We only had walk to the
border 50m. When I crossed the border the Polish people met us and I really
wanted to cry because they were so kind. They provided all the help I needed.
They helped me to catch the right bus and to go the place where I should go. It
was like a miracle. And yes, we also had some stuff with us, some backpacks,
but we were happy because it was a long way, we go like 22 hours.
Ellis- You’ve got
these bags, how were you able to fit everything that you need on the back of
your wheelchair?
Tanya- Too many bags.
It’s four bags. And you can’t imagine how we took it. I had a backpack on the
back of my wheelchair. Also I had a backpack on my back. My mum also had a
backpack. And I also had a big bag on my knees.
Ellis- Because
I’ve never been in your situation I don’t know, but when you are seeking to
flee in refuge I’m guessing you’ve got lots of different types of mobility
equipment, things that you need, things that you and your mother depend on
every day to be able to have the lives you have. How do you manage which ones
to take and which ones to leave behind in Kamianske?
Tanya- I just know
that I need to take my documents, I need to take some money and the basic stuff
which I use every day. As a woman first what I took, this was my favourite
dress. But then I put it out because I just thought that I will need
comfortable clothes. And I just forgot the pump for the wheels. A couple of
days before the invasion I realised that my wheels were a little bit broken.
When I was on my way I was just thinking about my wheelchair, this is the only
thing which will help me to move, and I’m caring about my wheelchair now more
than about myself.
Ellis- Did they
have cars that you get your chair into the back of?
Tanya- In an
accessible bus. And then some volunteers met me and took me by car to the place
where I had accommodation. It was so great because I was so tired. I just
wanted to go to this place where I can sleep, where I can take some hot tea,
because it was so cold.
Ellis- How has
your experience in Poland been so far, Tanya? Have people treated you well?
Have things been accessible?
Tanya- My experience
is quite positive. I so appreciate all the help which the Polish people provide
to me and my mum. Poland is a little bit more accessible than Ukraine. I had an
accessible accommodation and there is more accessible transportation and the
possibility to walk by streets by myself. At my home town I live on the fourth
floor and I can’t go out without help.
Ellis- So, you’ve
got friends, you’ve got family back in Kamianske city. You must be really
concerned for them?
Tanya- I am really
concerned about my relatives, and also they are concerned about me. We’re
trying to understand each other and I’m trying to understand their decision to
stay in Ukraine. And they’re trying to respect my decision to leave.
Ellis- What is
their decision to stay in Ukraine? Why have they decided to do that?
Tanya- Because that’s
their home. They have no place to go. And they are feeling better when they are
in their own home, in their own bed. I respect this decision. I just know that
I’m not able to stay in Ukraine because I need a lot of help.
Ellis- If you’d
stayed there you must have been really concerned about how you were going to
evacuate?
Tanya- There was the
biggest issue. And on February 24th I went to my aunt, living in a residential
house, because I was really scared to stay on the fourth floor. I know that I
need a lot of time to go down, and if there is some emergency situation I will
stay at home on the fourth floor, it will be really, really dangerous for me.
Ellis- In
of the disabled people who are still in Ukraine, who haven’t taken refuge, how
are they managing the situation? You see non-disabled people being able to go into
bomb shelters, being able to go into metro stations; are those options
accessible and available for disabled people?
Tanya- They’re staying
in their homes. And now the situation became worse because of lack of some
humanitarian stuff. And we also received some request for disability equipment,
like wheelchairs etc. because there are not some medical shops now. People not
able to go to bomb shelters this is now a problem with food, with water.
Ellis- Your
organisation, Fight For Our Right is doing a lot of work for disabled
Ukrainians. If people are listening to this and may want to disabled
Ukrainians how can they do that?
Tanya- We have
hundreds of campaigns on Go Fund Me and we weren’t expecting that people from
the whole world will be so kind and will so much us, and this is
incredible. Yes, we’re trying to help people with disabilities in Ukraine now
to pay for transportation, to pay for medical equipment etc. all what they
need.
Emma- Thanks to Tanya
Herasymova for telling her story, and to Ellis Palmer for bringing it to us.
Ellis is a producer on NewsHour for the BBC World Service. Now for a very, very
different perspective from the capital of Russia, where awareness of events in
Ukraine is reportedly very low due to media crackdowns and a regime who shows
their citizens something very different to what we see on our TV screens.
[Name]
is an autistic Russian journalist, and until recently she lived in Moscow. But
she felt compelled to leave after an article she wrote for media outlet,
[Organisation], condemning the war on Ukraine became pretty popular, and she
was afraid she’d be detained by the government. When I spoke to [Name] she told
me that that fear, plus sanctions and crackdowns on social media, left her
struggling to cope. Here’s [Name’s] story.
Guest- I started to
fall apart I think on day three of the war. I couldn’t function. I just locked
myself in a dark room where I was just crying and throwing up the entire day. I
couldn’t speak. I went completely non-verbal. I was shaking. I was just a
complete mess, to the point I think my partner just looked at me and said,
okay, we have to move, we have to go. And then he went and he’s booked the
flight tickets and sorted out our escape.
Emma- What was the
journey like for you?
Guest- We decided to
go to [Country] but we had to go through [Country]. The flight was postponed by
30 hours because some planes were sanctioned and could no longer fly. The
moment I saw how long the delay was I think I just started having a meltdown.
And then we were able to walk out again across the border, back into Russia,
and just go home. And we stayed there for the night, and then we could go back
to the airport. I am so grateful they actually let us out. I cannot imagine
staying in an airport for 30 hours. That’s just too loud, too intense for me.
I think
we only managed to exhale in relief when we crossed the border in [Country].
That was fine. I thought [Country] was really welcoming and really nice and I
really liked it there. however, we got to [City] in [Country] and then there
was so much graffiti on the walls all over the city that say, Russians go back
to your ugly country, Russians not welcome. And that’s just really
heart-breaking because we did not choose this. I don’t know anyone who s
what’s happening. I didn’t expect it to be so hostile because I am
half-[Nationality] and my experience with [Country] so far has been really
wholesome.
We went
there because logistically it was the easiest option, because it was no longer
possible to fly to Europe. And [Country] is the closest country. I didn’t want
to fly somewhere that’s like six hours ahead or behind.
Emma- And why not?
Guest- Well, mainly
because I still have to communicate with my job and my family in Moscow time.
And it’s comforting to stay somewhere that still feels relatively familiar.
Most people in [Country] speak Russian. There are a lot of Russian and
Belarussian and Ukrainian people in here, so it kind of feels like home, even
though it’s not.
Emma- What’s life been
like over the last few days that you’ve been in [Country]?
Guest- It’s been quite
intensive. I feel like we’re all at our limit. We’re all at capacity, just
trying to take it one day at a time. Yesterday was actually the first day in
two weeks that I didn’t cry. Seeing as the bar is so low it just felt like a
massive achievement.
Emma- Yes. Where have
you been staying since you got to [Country]? At hostels?
Guest- Yes, we’ve been
staying at a couple of different hostels and hotels. The one we’re at now is
quite nice because it’s quite remote and quiet. The first one was not very
comfortable. It was really loud, really cold, and I think I woke up in the
morning and I just started having a mental, like a meltdown because it was too
much.
Emma- Have you found
new ways to self-regulate? Have you found new ways of accommodating your needs?
How has it worked?
GUEST- I’m still trying
to find such ways. I think I’ve been feeling that I honestly just don’t have
time, and I cannot afford to fall apart. But the past few days I’ve just
basically been staying inside and just trying to calm down and not
overstimulate myself. Never being alone anymore and not having any stability is
hard.
Emma- Will you ever go
back to Russia, do you think?
Guest- I hope so.
Probably not for a long time. It’s a really strange feeling to realise that
you’re basically a criminal in your own home, somewhere that’s supposed to
protect you and make you feel safe. Because by the new Russian laws if you
speak out against what’s happening in Ukraine, if you don’t use the correct
terminology, if you say something that contradicts the position of the State
you can go to jail for up to 15 years. So, I did not want to risk it. I think
as an autistic person I would hate being in jail, even though it’s stability
and it’s quite a predictable environment; I don’t think it’s very friendly. So,
I probably will not go back any time soon.
Emma- I guess we can’t
talk about long-term future, but even the next couple of months what are your
plans?
Guest- Yes, you’re so
right, it’s impossible to even think about long-term future at this point. I
think our goal right now is to find a permanent place to live. And probably
also look for new jobs because I really struggle to see how it’s possible to
work in a Russian company in media.
Emma- It sounds very
uncertain.
Guest- Yeah. But, I
don’t know, I’ve met so many wonderful people. Honestly it’s not all so bad.
For example, there is a family of Ukrainian refugees living next door in our
hostel, and when I first met them I was so confused. I felt so guilty, I just
wanted to cry and I wanted to apologise to them on behalf of my country. But
they were so wonderful and so understanding. The mother she made us tea and
sandwiches and we just sat for an hour and talked about how much this sucks.
They told me their story about how they barely survived and how they escaped.
And now we just keep in touch and trying to help each other figure out to live
in [Country], how to find accommodation, how to open a bank ; just
exchanging information. So, in a way I think this crisis is bringing a lot of
people together.
Emma- Thanks to [Name]
and to Tanya for sharing their stories with us. We’re interested to hear from
you if you’re disabled or an ally to disabled people and are affected by the
war on Ukraine. Email accessall@bbc.co.uk to get in touch.
A
surprise new email address for you there. Access All is the name of a new
weekly disability news podcast, presented by Nicky Fox. And I’ll be back in
your ears then too, reporting on the disability stories that matter to you. The
new pod launches at the end of April. We’ll be a bit quiet while we get it
ready, but you don’t need to do anything. We’ll be back on this very feed to
tell you more soon.
I’m
Emma Tracey, and it just remains for me to say thank you for being awesome and
for sticking with the award winning Ouch podcast through 16 years of various
changes. We appreciate it a lot.
[Music]
Stay subscribed to this feed and, well, talk soon.
